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 Post subject: Re: The Archer Rises
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 7:52 pm 
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Just crossed my mind, the question I'd keep asking myself is whether this makes a good npc to play. Too many abilities at 4-6th rank just makes it troublesome. I'd much rather keep them simple until 8th rank. It wouldn't be 'overpowered' if they had other skills that benefit other aspects of the game such as overland travel or some kind of rural ability.

At the back of my mind, there is a role where the archers can fire from a hidden position and not be spotted. The stealth rules don't cover this but imagine getting shot up from a concealed area and only being able to guess the direction of the arrows? You know, like something out of robin hood?

Something along those lines.....

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 Post subject: Re: The Archer Rises
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:59 am 
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Thank you for your input Supremacy. I've fixed the errata now and will upload a new version soon.

Here are my thoughts about the other items you pointed out; tell me if they make sense.
Supremacy wrote:
1° D6+5 HP again, I'm bored of that many Characters with the same amount of HP. D6+6 would have been better, at least for a change.

This could work. What does everybody else think?
Supremacy wrote:
2° Again, 6 in Defense; I would had like for an Attacking Archer at range but a defending Char at close combat, since it's a mobile/agile fighter, i.e. 7 Defense. Since there is only 1 Char: the Knight, that as that much DEF, it would make for a good change. At worst, reduce his Attack to 11, but I don't think it's a good idea.

I don't see it this way I'm afraid. I'm not aware of any historical evidence for archers to be particularly good in defence. If anything, I could see an argument being made the other way.
Supremacy wrote:
3° Since it's not a close combat fighter, what would be the good reason to ask for 9 Strenght ? I believe 9 Intelligence sounds better for a range combat Char. And probably ask for 11 or 12 Reflexes would be better, according to the multiple skills that he got.

A lot of strength is needed to pull a bow. I suppose this restriction could be lifted for crossbowmen and perhaps slingers though.
Supremacy wrote:
4° In Rapid Shooting, the distance between the 3 targets shouldn't be relevant, since you DIVIDE the Attack in 3, you should be able to shoot at them in a 180° in front of you, up to the weapon range. Close targets are mandatory only if you keep full Attack.

180 degrees is a very wide arc (much wider than the human field of binocular view, in fact), and my feeling was that it's really only practical to shoot at multiple targets within a narrower field - I had about 45 degrees in mind, based on a few basic experiments I did standing in a field. Because it takes time and energy to switch from one target to another, it seems to me that if you're shooting at a wider arc than about 45 degrees you'll end up wasting too much time just rotating and not aiming or shooting.

Supremacy wrote:
5° To me the Archer is a fast-moving/fighting Char, so a basic AF of 2 sounds better. At best, do like the Hunter class and add a 'Soldier' skill, to reach no more than AF 3: Ringmail/Hauberk. That will mostly differentiate the Archer from the Hunter class, which is a very good thing.

I'm a bit torn on this one. I selected the penalty we see because historically archers quite commonly wore armour, and it didn't seem to impact their archery. Your suggestion is a good one I think; it would perhaps offset the overpoweredness of the Archer that Dreadnought and Kharille have commented on.

Thanks again!

Cheers,

-Kyle


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 Post subject: Re: The Archer Rises
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:04 am 
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Kharille wrote:
Just crossed my mind, the question I'd keep asking myself is whether this makes a good npc to play. Too many abilities at 4-6th rank just makes it troublesome. I'd much rather keep them simple until 8th rank. It wouldn't be 'overpowered' if they had other skills that benefit other aspects of the game such as overland travel or some kind of rural ability.


I fear the days of simple professions are behind us. I'm not sure how you could do it now and still make the profession distinct.

Kharille wrote:
At the back of my mind, there is a role where the archers can fire from a hidden position and not be spotted. The stealth rules don't cover this but imagine getting shot up from a concealed area and only being able to guess the direction of the arrows? You know, like something out of robin hood?

Something along those lines.....


I like this idea, but how would it differ from just using the existing Stealth rules? There's currently no penalty to Stealth from shooting from cover anyway, as far as I can remember.

Cheers,

-Kyle


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 Post subject: Re: The Archer Rises
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:24 am 
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I keep thinking of warhammer 40k. I think they had this situation where you can fire from cover and not be spotted unless you're using needle weapons or shuriken. Same way we may need to introduce some form of spotting rules, and how archers are better at spotting snipers. As the rules stand you only do STEALTH vs PERCEPTION when someone declares they are actively looking, which probably means no other action that round. Doesn't mean that they are exposed though.

And they had that concept of sort cover (curtains) vs hard cover (walls)....

Yeah, I think palladium fantasy 2ed had the same issue over 1ed.... too many special abilities that are so flashy in combat...

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 Post subject: Re: The Archer Rises
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:43 pm 
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WodenKrait wrote:
Kharille wrote:
Just crossed my mind, the question I'd keep asking myself is whether this makes a good npc to play. Too many abilities at 4-6th rank just makes it troublesome. I'd much rather keep them simple until 8th rank. It wouldn't be 'overpowered' if they had other skills that benefit other aspects of the game such as overland travel or some kind of rural ability.


I fear the days of simple professions are behind us. I'm not sure how you could do it now and still make the profession distinct.

I fear that, too, because the simple-to-pick-up-and-play professions are one of the things I really liked about DW.

To make the Archer distinct, just give him the Shooting Bonus skill with a bow, and make it's other abilities skills of the mighty. Any other skills that can be practised by any profession (such as fletching) can just be basic rules, not special abilities. Make it more of an archery sourcebook than an Archer profession.

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 Post subject: Re: The Archer Rises
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:53 pm 
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WodenKrait wrote:
Supremacy wrote:
1° D6+5 HP again, I'm bored of that many Characters with the same amount of HP. D6+6 would have been better, at least for a change.

This could work. What does everybody else think?

I think d6+6 is reasonable. The Archer is primarily a combat character, but shouldn't be as effective as a Knight.
WodenKrait wrote:
Supremacy wrote:
2° Again, 6 in Defense; I would had like for an Attacking Archer at range but a defending Char at close combat, since it's a mobile/agile fighter, i.e. 7 Defense. Since there is only 1 Char: the Knight, that as that much DEF, it would make for a good change. At worst, reduce his Attack to 11, but I don't think it's a good idea.

I don't see it this way I'm afraid. I'm not aware of any historical evidence for archers to be particularly good in defence. If anything, I could see an argument being made the other way.

An archer that's sacrificed skill with other weapons to be good with a bow isn't going to be practised at melee defence. I'd be tempted to give the Archer a much poorer defence than the other fighting professions to represent this lack of skill in this area.
WodenKrait wrote:
Supremacy wrote:
5° To me the Archer is a fast-moving/fighting Char, so a basic AF of 2 sounds better. At best, do like the Hunter class and add a 'Soldier' skill, to reach no more than AF 3: Ringmail/Hauberk. That will mostly differentiate the Archer from the Hunter class, which is a very good thing.

I'm a bit torn on this one. I selected the penalty we see because historically archers quite commonly wore armour, and it didn't seem to impact their archery. Your suggestion is a good one I think; it would perhaps offset the overpoweredness of the Archer that Dreadnought and Kharille have commented on.

I agree that an archer, who wouldn't be in the front line, wouldn't need to wear heavy armour, or train in such.

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 Post subject: Re: The Archer Rises
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:03 am 
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I quite like the general direction we're travelling in with these Archer critiques, so I'll toss some of the ideas around and try for a second draft. Stay tuned!

Cheers,

-Kyle


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 Post subject: Re: The Archer Rises
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:07 pm 
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Redo archery! Just add a few more elements to it in terms of cover...

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 Post subject: Re: The Archer Rises
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:35 pm 
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Cobwebbed Dragon wrote:
An archer that's sacrificed skill with other weapons to be good with a bow isn't going to be practised at melee defence. I'd be tempted to give the Archer a much poorer defence than the other fighting professions to represent this lack of skill in this area.


If it was true, then why were the Archers so good versus infantry on the field of battle? (It's only versus cavalry that they were really bad.) Archers were killing Infantry from afar, reducing their number before getting out their Shortsword and fighting them hand-to-hand; when the Infantry was coming up close. So when you said "isn't going to be practised at melee defence": Archers were trained to fight versus melee fighters; but maybe those are Soldier-Archers, a subcategory of the first one.

Honestly, I didn't want to came back to Wodenkrait on that, since it's HIS Profession, but when you add "give the Archer a much poorer defence", I think you misunderstand what an Archer was. Practicing to fight versus Infantry was half of his job, the other half was shooting from range.

Anyway, have fun and keep creating Kyle, your doing a great job.

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 Post subject: Re: The Archer Rises
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:27 am 
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Any historical examples?

Maybe there were good at holding positions, defending. Maybe higher defence, lower attack, then add the shooting bonus for archery? I think at Agincourt they were good at taking out tired knights trapped in mud.

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