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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:23 am 
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I was thinking about stats for the various creatures in the lands of legend. Not sure how we would resolve an arm wrestle, but what if we wanted to test a spinx on its knowledge? Or the strength of a frost giant? I know Vampires have a strength of 19 or 20 since they get that bonus to armour bypass and damage. I would assume that this is worked into the stats of creatures, but how to resolve a situation where a vampire arm wrestles a frost giant? Do you have any thoughts on this? What about a frost giant who wanted to climb a castle wall? Would it be worth the effort?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:39 pm 
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Kharille wrote:
I was thinking about stats for the various creatures in the lands of legend. Not sure how we would resolve an arm wrestle, but what if we wanted to test a spinx on its knowledge? Or the strength of a frost giant? I know Vampires have a strength of 19 or 20 since they get that bonus to armour bypass and damage. I would assume that this is worked into the stats of creatures, but how to resolve a situation where a vampire arm wrestles a frost giant? Do you have any thoughts on this? What about a frost giant who wanted to climb a castle wall? Would it be worth the effort?

AD&D attempted to go down this route - apply statistics to monsters, gods, etc., against a scale that was only ever designed to measure human capabilities (and crudely, at that).

My advice would be don't do it. Frost Giants are much stronger than any human, even a relatively weak frost giant will squash a strong human like a cherry tomato in a direct contest of strength. And also consider that resolving a climb attempt for a frost giant might be more about them using their strength to punch holes in the castle wall to use as handholds than it would be about reflexes (of course, I would suggest that if you, as GM, need the frost giant to be able to scale a castle wall to add tension and drama to a scene, then that is your narrative imperative - just do it; don't roll).

And if you're ever in a situation where a vampire is arm wrestling a frost giant, I'd suggest you've already left the Lands of Legend behind...

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:57 am 
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Oh yeah, the adnd 1ed I'm familiar, they had cloud giants, frost giants, storm giants… guess it gets awkward but since its possible for a human to somehow reach strength 19 or 20…. figured it might be the basis for an expanded system and compatibility to incorporate giants as player characters.

They do that with the Palladium fantasy rpg system. In the basic rules to incorporate orcs and whatnot as player characters.

I'm also thinking of some kind of expanded system for taking on big creatures. I'd imagine instead of 'killing' a dragon that you'd assign body parts to cripple it. I'm sure if you manage to destroy a limb the Dragon might start flying away, unless you're in the lair. Just thoughts about expansion of the existing rules.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:34 pm 
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Kharille wrote:
...to incorporate giants as player characters.

I wonder if that wouldn't be a departure from the low-fantasy mood of the Lands of Legend? It'd be interesting to use Dragon Warriors rules in the high-fantasy realms of Faerun, or other D&D equivalents, but that might take quite an overhaul of the system (especially combat/health points - as superhero games tend to focus more on combat than adventure) to make this work. The magic system is already pretty high-fantasy (and has never really fit with a low-fantasy realm, in my opinion), though, so could almost be ported as-is.

Kharille wrote:
I'm also thinking of some kind of expanded system for taking on big creatures. I'd imagine instead of 'killing' a dragon that you'd assign body parts to cripple it. I'm sure if you manage to destroy a limb the Dragon might start flying away, unless you're in the lair.

Warhammer FRPG has an elegant mechanism for incorporating the hit location into the hit roll (reverse the roll - so a hit roll of '37' hits location '73') and a criticals system that allows you to cripple body parts without killing your enemy. It works pretty well and could easily be ported to DW - just have the hit location determined by the "units" number on the hit roll, weighted towards likely hit locations. Once HP have been reduced to 0, where you hit determines what major wound they suffer. A more advanced system could be more Runequest-y, where each hit location has its own Health Points score and you only have to reduce the location HP to cripple that body part, not reduce the overall HP score.

Not sure how it would play in practice, because this could also quickly cripple the PCs - and combat in DW is, arguably, already pretty lethal compared to other FRPGs.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:24 pm 
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Hm, well we have dwarves and elves. I'd imagine people would discourage it but its an option. Why not orcs or flying heads as player characters? I figure a Cadaver might be fun to play.

I owned wfrp 1ed for many years but I thought it was awkward and cumbersome. But one thing good I have to say is the initiative rules. A guy wielding a spear would probably go first and special rules and mechanics for cavalry lance initiatives. I'd love to see this in dragwars. Maybe the starwars d6 system where a guy with a higher attack roll acts/shoots first would be nice and easy to implement.

Heard about Runequest, need to find a copy sometime.

Player characters need to learn to live with reality, especially when you got those ankh of osiris and MIRACLE CURE spells. If players get upset because they're missing an arm and a leg they're pretty immature if you ask me. I remember one time I was about to play a character and the GM said this guy would be drowned at birth. Well, I have played retards, disfigured individuals and amputees and its certainly a departure from my real life, looks 18 adepthood perfect existence...

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:33 pm 
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Kharille wrote:
Hm, well we have dwarves and elves. I'd imagine people would discourage it but its an option. Why not orcs or flying heads as player characters? I figure a Cadaver might be fun to play.

They're very much buried away in the bestiary and not part of the "core" game. I get the impression that this, along with some other concessions, are included only to meet the expectations of the FRPG market at the time rather than to be deliberate enhancements to the experience of playing in the Lands of Legend.

Kharille wrote:
I owned wfrp 1ed for many years but I thought it was awkward and cumbersome.

It's still an extra thing to process as part of each combat round, but the elegance with which it balanced the mechanic without requiring additional die rolls (which are terrible for slowing down the narrative - and combat is already one of the slowest elements of the game) was what I was getting at.

Kharille wrote:
Player characters need to learn to live with reality, especially when you got those ankh of osiris and MIRACLE CURE spells. If players get upset because they're missing an arm and a leg they're pretty immature if you ask me.

I would tend to agree with you - playing a character within its constraints is part of the fun of roleplaying for me and the additional situations such a character might end up in that would otherwise be avoided if he were fully able. However, it similarly requires a games master comfortable with setting appropriate challenges for these characters and a group of players comfortable with this grittier style of play - not an easy combination to find (and not one for which published adventures are typically suitable).

My own approach to major wounds is to slowly erode the character's primary ability scores - an old injury might permanently make some tasks more difficult, but without permanently disabling a character (https://www.cobwebbedforest.co.uk/libra ... Wounds.pdf). It's a balance that works well for my style of play, but I can see how playing a disabled or crippled character might provide an exciting roleplaying opportunity for some players. Elric of Melnibone is a perfect example of a character whose physical health stacked the odds against him, but still had plenty of world-changing adventures - possibly not a great role-model for our heroic low-fantasy dragon warriors, but you see my point!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:29 pm 
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Watched a Samurai film recently, blade of the immortal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blade_of_ ... rtal_(film)

The main guy has this scar on his face. Lots of red dye splashed around this one. Lots of characters have scars and all.

I think its good to have curses, disease, disability to make the character distinct. Maybe even insanity. What about a dishonoured knight who was branded for a crime he did not commit? Or even one that had his tongue cut out? I remember one time one of my players in the 90's lost interest after he took a crippling knee wound. Happy to travel across an island but wouldn't run to save himself. Oh and what about a player who was subject to torture? I think it makes a great storyline. Characters like Darkman, Darth Vader, Doc Holliday, are they expected to be evil? I could see some interesting curses adding to the players. Wasn't Odysseus cursed to wander for 10 years because he offended Poseidon? Actually I'm rereading the Iliad recently....

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:39 pm 
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Kharille wrote:
I think its good to have curses, disease, disability to make the character distinct. Maybe even insanity. What about a dishonoured knight who was branded for a crime he did not commit? Or even one that had his tongue cut out? I remember one time one of my players in the 90's lost interest after he took a crippling knee wound. Happy to travel across an island but wouldn't run to save himself. Oh and what about a player who was subject to torture? I think it makes a great storyline. Characters like Darkman, Darth Vader, Doc Holliday, are they expected to be evil? I could see some interesting curses adding to the players. Wasn't Odysseus cursed to wander for 10 years because he offended Poseidon? Actually I'm rereading the Iliad recently....

I use "Presence" instead of "Looks" in my game, and a low Presence score could be interpreted by the player as their character having disfiguring scars, etc. (which could have been because the character was tortured by an arch-enemy) - of course, a dramatic scar might actually improve their Presence - it is about how the character perceives their appearance that affects their Presence. Madness also reduces a character's Presence.

And for some of the examples you mention, if torture, branding, or specific injuries (such as having one's tongue cut out) were part of the narrative of the story, then the player would have to play that aspect of his character, but I wouldn't necessarily have those things occur as random consequences of combat unless the players were all comfortable with that (and combat was sufficiently infrequent that such a possibility would be sufficiently low and the characters could remain whole for more than a couple of adventures).

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:39 pm 
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Kharille wrote:
I think its good to have curses, disease, disability to make the character distinct. Maybe even insanity. What about a dishonoured knight who was branded for a crime he did not commit? Or even one that had his tongue cut out? I remember one time one of my players in the 90's lost interest after he took a crippling knee wound. Happy to travel across an island but wouldn't run to save himself. Oh and what about a player who was subject to torture? I think it makes a great storyline. Characters like Darkman, Darth Vader, Doc Holliday, are they expected to be evil? I could see some interesting curses adding to the players. Wasn't Odysseus cursed to wander for 10 years because he offended Poseidon? Actually I'm rereading the Iliad recently....

I use "Presence" instead of "Looks" in my game, and a low Presence score could be interpreted by the player as their character having disfiguring scars, etc. (which could have been because the character was tortured by an arch-enemy) - of course, a dramatic scar might actually improve their Presence - it is about how the character perceives their appearance that affects their Presence. Madness also reduces a character's Presence.

And for some of the examples you mention, if torture, branding, or specific injuries (such as having one's tongue cut out) were part of the narrative of the story, then the player would have to play that aspect of his character, but I wouldn't necessarily have those things occur as random consequences of combat unless the players were all comfortable with that (and combat was sufficiently infrequent that such a possibility would be low enough to ensure characters could remain whole for more than a couple of adventures).

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:05 am 
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Now that’s a thought. Maybe a dragwars expansion on a player characters obligations? Having to take care of family members, make cash donations and all. I think the background information in DW book 6 mentions that assassins are typically being hunted. What about a supplement on goodwill from the church, barons and dukes or maybe your favourite shopkeeper? It would be hard to give precise values but it might be good for a looks specific expansion of the dragwars rules. Not just to the conventional living but also obligations to ghosts, undead, curses, maybe adventures based on finding the cure to a curse or the acquisition of prosthetic limbs?

Also debts in its various forms. That includes acts of vengeance on evil NPCs and having a common cause with other wronged individuals? Perhaps it is possible for players to gain gratitude with some of their encounters and thus a favour in the future. Or maybe obligations to repay a dragon some generations later (the present generation), in exchange for services.

Would it be worthwhile to create background information on noble titles for players? I have some recollection of entries in White Dwarf magazines meant for the WFRP system on nobility. Since its so prominent in the medieval world perhaps some supplement on noble titles, etiquette and other courtly politics would be in order?

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