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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:36 am 
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Based on what I recall there was a simplistic 5% chance of detecting an illusion. However since there are STEALTH vs PERCEPTION rules shouldn't we apply that instead? Surely a perceptive assassin or elf might be able to see through an illusion which probably lacks key features, odours or details that might give it away?

Has anyone tried reinterpreting the rules to take into account really perceptive individuals? Is it possible that a dragon with panoptical vision might be able to see across a wider spectrum and notice details that others might not? Is it possible a sapper can create a disguised trap that can help him distinguish between illusions, ghosts versus those with actual weight? Couldn't a saber tooth notice the lack of smell associated with an illusion?

Also, how loud can an illusion be?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:18 am 
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Kharille wrote:
Based on what I recall there was a simplistic 5% chance of detecting an illusion. However since there are STEALTH vs PERCEPTION rules shouldn't we apply that instead? Surely a perceptive assassin or elf might be able to see through an illusion which probably lacks key features, odours or details that might give it away?

Has anyone tried reinterpreting the rules to take into account really perceptive individuals? Is it possible that a dragon with panoptical vision might be able to see across a wider spectrum and notice details that others might not? Is it possible a sapper can create a disguised trap that can help him distinguish between illusions, ghosts versus those with actual weight? Couldn't a saber tooth notice the lack of smell associated with an illusion?

Also, how loud can an illusion be?

It's worth checking out your older thread on this topic - viewtopic.php?f=4&t=238

And a longer thread that also discusses illusions - viewtopic.php?f=4&t=72

As for the specific interpretations you mention in this post - illusions don't have weight as they fool the senses only - I would not interpret this as meaning the "sense" of an inanimate object like a pressure plate or tripwire, etc., but I guess it is possible to interpret this more widely. As for illusions having an accompanying sound or smell, the description of the Image spell indicates that the "caster can create a visual image..." This is the same for the Mystic's Mirage spell. As for the more powerful Illusion spell, the description is pretty clear "...it fools not just sight but the other natural senses as well." So images (and mirages) are visual only and illusions cover the full spectrum of senses.

Illusions are always an oft-overlooked weapon in a cunning mage's arsenal, and their creative application is often far more useful than anything they could conjure with fire - the could reinforce a bluff, give an enemy pause, etc. Powerful things! Which means they probably need stronger rules to help all players get the most out of them. Ideas and suggestions always welcome - I won't repost my illusion rules here as they're already available at the links above, but I'd be interested in others' interpretations of illusions, either in this thread or the others.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:15 pm 
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Heh, I'm long overdue for my annual 'illusions interpretation' thread...

Its chinese new year so when I'm not binging on skyrim I thought I'd throw something out there. I remember years ago my 'shields' topic got people fired up on yahoogroups.

I might consider an intelligence roll to be appropriate. Seeing as a less than smart sorceror may miss some detail and not have a comprehensive knowledge or recreate the appearance of a creature vs someone who actually fought one. Might be the same issue as the Assassin, missing out fine details that a smarter, or more experienced individual would notice. Maybe experience and rank would factor into seeing through illusions.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:36 pm 
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Fun uses for illusions are cases such as extending a cliff edge so a character runs off it, or (as it happened in a game I played in) creating a pair of sabretooths then routing!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:21 pm 
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Illusions are a powerful force, but it can be easy for a sorcerer to miss a detail. Examples might include:
A torch that appears to light a corridor but gives no light to illuminate (should the characters try to read something, for example),
An image of something crawling out of a lake, but it leaves no wet prints behind it (conversely, a fleeing sorcerer trying to appear dry when coming in out of the rain leaves behind him a trail of water),
A heavy chain binding a door, but the links make no sound when the chain is moved…

All of the above may give characters a chance to disbelieve the illusion.

Regarding disbelieving, I notice that the 2nd Edition rulebook makes no change to that chance: it’s still a 5% chance of disbelieving. You could use STEALTH vs. PERCEPTION… Or you could add a percentile chance for every point of PERCEPTION above 5 (which is an “average” stat from most characters)?
(The GM would also be free to add circumstantial modifiers to the chance to disbelieve.)

The Pathfinder game also has a little comment tucked away in its rules on illusions:
“A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw.”
There are no saving throws in Dragon Warriors but, faced with incontrovertible proof that what they are seeing cannot be real, the characters may disbelieve the illusion.
(It may be upto the GM to rule on what constitutes “proof” in a world where magic is real and someone walking over an illusory pit might actually be flying!)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:29 pm 
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With regards to higher level Illusions 'fooling all of the senses, not just sight', could an experienced Sorcerer make a character believe they were actually falling into a pit, taking damage, etc. (illusory pain) as a distraction or trap to mess with the character's mind?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:30 pm 
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With regards to higher level Illusions 'fooling all of the senses, not just sight', could an experienced Sorcerer make a character believe they were actually falling into a pit, taking damage, etc. (illusory pain) as a distraction or trap to mess with the character's mind?


Possibly... But, when it comes to taking/inflicting damage, the illusion would be fooling the character's mind - but not their nervous system. The character may think they've been hurt, but their body would be telling them otherwise.

The call would be up to the GM, but you could either:
a) have the character suddenly have "proof" of the illusion (they're not hurt, therefore it didn't happen) and disbelieve, or
b) have the character have a chance to disbelieve with each injury. The chance to disbelieve may be increased with the severity of the "damage inflicted." If the character continues to believe, then they may end up stunned, or even blacking out for a round or two, depending on the severity of the injury.

Personally, I prefer to avoid having illusions create damage. The creature attacking is somehow always parried by the character (or fails to penetrate their armour); the fall into the pit is miraculously cushioned by something soft; &c., &c...

In my games, if the characters stray into the lands of Faerie, they may find themselves affected by Glamour. I treat Glamour as an Illusion (with the same chance to disbelieve) but, if the character believes the Glamour to be real, then it affects them as though it were...
(Which makes Faerie quite dangerous. As it should be.)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:24 pm 
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Not so sure about the pain caused by illusions myself. If you're able to 'FIRESTORM' someone with an illusion you'd have to create a lot of effects. Maybe something that would apply to Magus Tor spells in bloodsword or possibly the Witch King guy from Wyrd in bloodsword 2.

Way I see it, Assassins have that hypersensitivity and harder to fool. That includes enhanced sense of smell, hearing and might not be so easily fooled. I might consider magical attack vs perception since magical attack is a reflection of their experience, intelligence and psychic talent. A really smart, knowledgeable sorceror would be best to fool an assassin.

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