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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:45 pm 
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Just been musing on possible simple formula:

Encumbrance of a person is 10+ Half STRENGTH
To accommodate juveniles, for every 2 years (or part) under 18, deduct 1

If a character is emaciated, multiply by 0.5.
If a character is underweight, multiply by 0.75
If a character is overweight, multiply by 1.5
If a character is obese, multiply by 2.

The range for a typical adult would be 12-19, with extremes of 6-38 for emaciated weakling vs powerfully obese respectively.

A newborn babe would be encumbrance 2 (assuming a Str score of '1')
An 8 year old would be encumbrance 7 (assuming a Str score of '3')
A 16 year old would be enc 14 (assuming a Str score of 9)
A 20 year old would be enc 16 (assuming a Str score of 11)

I haven't included any modifier for male/female, even though women are typically lighter than men. As gender is not reflected in physical characteristics like STRENGTH, I've omitted it here. If you do modify for gender, I would presume this will be already factored into the characters base STR score, so would naturally be reflected in the formula.

Note that considering DW's very simplistic encumbrance rules, I have no idea how much a character can carry when over-burdened - maybe 10+STR? This allows an average character to carry another average person (in a shoulder lift perhaps), plus some equipment, but likely only for a short time and with limited mobility.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:42 am 
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Sometimes I wonder whether health points would be better. And Barbarians being the ones with the most potential for being super obese.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:28 am 
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Starkad wrote:
How does "Senses" match up with existing Perceptions characteristics?


Senses is the characteristic that principally affects Perception. It reflects how good the character's eyesight, hearing etc is.

Starkad wrote:
Just like in King Arthur Pendragon... Do the characters gain in HP as they gain in Ranks?


I think it was inspired by Call of Cthulhu originally, which is based on Runequest I believe. HP doesn't advance unless the character does something to increase his or her Constitution.

Starkad wrote:
Yes it does. I used to have lots of "house rules" like this, until I realised I was actually playing a completely different game, just set in the DW world. I have since opted for "bolt on" rules which add to the game, but don't fundamentally change it - i.e. if you removed all my house rules, the basic rulebook would be there and waiting.
(Not to everyone's taste, I know... But it was a challenge I set myself and I've stuck to that since then. Otherwise, if I fancy a change, I'll pick a different set of game rules and play those.)


Yeah compatibility is a problem. I was kind of proud that my rules were still close enough to the original game in key respects that I could still pick up any of the published adventures with minimal modification, despite being so different fundamentally.

Cheers,

-Kyle


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:50 am 
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wimlach wrote:

Note that considering DW's very simplistic encumbrance rules, I have no idea how much a character can carry when over-burdened - maybe 10+STR? This allows an average character to carry another average person (in a shoulder lift perhaps), plus some equipment, but likely only for a short time and with limited mobility.


I feel there should be some kind of scale penalty for exceeding encumbrance; if you're over a little, the penalty is small but once you get to double encumbrance or whatever it becomes debilitating. I also reckon there should be a bonus to running speed and initiative if a character voluntarily casts off all or nearly all of their equipment.

Cheers,

-Kyle


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:24 pm 
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To explain how I use encumbrance (in terms of items carried), I first need to explain how I’ve changed movement in my version of DW. Instead of saying that everyone moves at 2.5m per Combat Round, I use a Movement Rate which is calculated by (Strength + Reflexes) / 10.
Example:
Aescwine the Barbarian has a Strength score of 15 and a Reflexes score of 10. Aescwine’s Movement Rate is (15 + 10) / 10 = 2.5, rounded up to 3.

Characters can walk at Movement Rate x4 in a Combat Round and run at Movement Rate x8.

This presumes that the character is "Encumbered" as their normal state of affairs (as though they were typically equipped adventurers). Movement Rate can be affected if carrying more or less, as follows:
Unencumbered (+2 bonus to Movement Rate): unarmoured and no more than a third of the maximum number of items allowed are worn or carried.
Light Encumbrance (+1 bonus to Movement Rate): sort or hard leather worn and bearing no more than half the maximum allowed number of items.
Encumbered: studded leather, chainmail or plate armour worn and up to a full load carried.
Very Encumbered (–1 penalty to Movement Rate): armoured and lifting up to twice the maximum number of items.
(Note – it is not possible to fight when Very Encumbered.)

It's a bit "rough and ready" and may require some GM calls for borderline cases, but worked in the games I ran. Note that it becomes possible to move faster by discarding items and armour.

Armour is a principal limiting factor for movement. I've noticed that when wearing heavy armour (chainmail in my case) that movement in combat is not much impaired, but it acts like an upper limit on the speed at which you can run; I just couldn't reach a decent top speed.

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Just been musing on possible simple formula:

I quite like that formula and may "adopt" it for my own use. ;)

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Note that considering DW's very simplistic encumbrance rules, I have no idea how much a character can carry when over-burdened...

See above.

Moving on...

Quote:
Senses is the characteristic that principally affects Perception. It reflects how good the character's eyesight, hearing etc is.

Does this mean you did away with the rules for Stealth and Perception in your version of DW? Or does Senses have an effect on Perception?

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I think it was inspired by Call of Cthulhu originally, which is based on Runequest I believe.

Makes sense: both games published by Chaosium - so using a similar mechanic.

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HP doesn't advance unless the character does something to increase his or her Constitution.

That's certainly an option - and it's how the rules work in Pendragon, Cthulhu, etc. It would be something of a disadvantage for Knights and Barbarians, though... Do they get something "in exchange" to balance this out?

Quote:
I was kind of proud that my rules were still close enough to the original game in key respects that I could still pick up any of the published adventures with minimal modification, despite being so different fundamentally.

Nice one. That's pretty much the guidelines I set for myself. :D


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:49 am 
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Starkad wrote:
Quote:
Does this mean you did away with the rules for Stealth and Perception in your version of DW? Or does Senses have an effect on Perception?


I Kept Stealth and Perception. They are skills (just like Attack and Defence) and Senses is a characteristic (like Strength or Reflexes).

I think it makes sense (no pun intended) that you can train yourself to be better at noticing things and interpreting signs etc, and that's what Perception is. Some old veteran with failing eyesight and one duff ear might still be better at detecting an ambush or whatever than a wet-behind-the-ears rookie who has never been in the field.


Quote:
That's certainly an option - and it's how the rules work in Pendragon, Cthulhu, etc. It would be something of a disadvantage for Knights and Barbarians, though... Do they get something "in exchange" to balance this out?


I let my players choose (if they wanted) to use points allocation rather than random rolling to set up their characters. This generally meant Knights and Barbarians would choose to put lots of points into Con and Siz (also Str and Ref) because they didn't need to worry so much about Psy etc. In my games all the skills had to be bought if the character was generated by points allocation so Knights and Barbarians, who had fewer of these abilities to choose from, were free to spend them on fighting abilities or even characteristics.

To illustrate this (and I'm working from memory here, so I might be getting the details wrong...), a Sorcerer needs to spend 55 character points (cp) just to get level 11 Sorcery Skill (which enables him to cast level 1 spells). A Knight doesn't need to spend that so he's free to spend his cp on (for instance) increasing his Constitution from 11 to 13, with 5 points left over. Sorcerers also need to spend cp for Channeling (which gives him Magic Points), Alchemy, Artifice, and Calligraphy. Magical Attack also costs cp and its expected a Sorcerer will have a higher Magical Defence than a Knight, so there are points to spend there too. In short, its expensive in cp to be a Sorcerer, and because everybody starts out with the same amount of cp (1400 if memory serves) Sorcerers end up usually being smaller, weaker, slower, and less healthy than their fighting brethren. Extend that to the other professions to differing degrees.

Knights and Barbarians also had a "toughness" ability which let them fight effectively when injured; in my rules Sorcerers, Elementalists etc and could be disabled quite early in a fight after suffering a non-fatal wound, because they lacked this ability. Just like I'm sure I'd go down with the first punch if I was in a brawl. :ugeek:

Cheers,

-Kyle


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:50 am 
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Quote:
I Kept Stealth and Perception. They are skills (just like Attack and Defence) and Senses is a characteristic (like Strength or Reflexes).

I think it makes sense (no pun intended) that you can train yourself to be better at noticing things and interpreting signs etc, and that's what Perception is. Some old veteran with failing eyesight and one duff ear might still be better at detecting an ambush or whatever than a wet-behind-the-ears rookie who has never been in the field.

I see. That makes sense. Most games have the ability to develop Perception as a skill - same with Stealth / Sneak / whatever you want to call it.

In which circumstances would you use Sense as an Attribute? Does it modify the Perception skill?

Quote:
I let my players choose (if they wanted) to use points allocation rather than random rolling to set up their characters.

I've stuck to rolling dice. Players get to roll 2 sets of Attributes on 3d6. They pick the best of the two and play with that set. Sometimes, if both sets are really bad, I'll let them roll a third...

In this way, I've had Sorcerers with high Strength and near minimum Intelligence,* and Barbarians with low Strength and high Psychic Talent. It all depends how determined the player is to play a particular character class regardless of Attributes... It also reduces "min-maxing" a bit.
* Which led to some interesting discussions on how the character came to be a sorcerer in the first place!

Quote:
Knights and Barbarians also had a "toughness" ability which let them fight effectively when injured; in my rules Sorcerers, Elementalists etc and could be disabled quite early in a fight after suffering a non-fatal wound, because they lacked this ability.

Hmm. I quite like that idea...


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:35 pm 
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Starkad wrote:
In which circumstances would you use Sense as an Attribute? Does it modify the Perception skill?


You'd use Senses for something like working out if you can see something at a certain distance or hear a faint sound. E.g "Offa asks you if you can make out the soft words that floating on the air, as they are in a language he doesn'tunderstand. Alas they are too faint for your ears." In this case Offa has a higher Senses score than you do.

Senses gives the same kind of bonuses to Perception as (say) Strength does for Attack. It also affects Stealth a little.

Starkad wrote:
I've stuck to rolling dice. Players get to roll 2 sets of Attributes on 3d6. They pick the best of the two and play with that set. Sometimes, if both sets are really bad, I'll let them roll a third...

In this way, I've had Sorcerers with high Strength and near minimum Intelligence,* and Barbarians with low Strength and high Psychic Talent. It all depends how determined the player is to play a particular character class regardless of Attributes... It also reduces "min-maxing" a bit.
* Which led to some interesting discussions on how the character came to be a sorcerer in the first place!


That's fair enough. I also allowed random rolling, but was ruthless about it; if you rolled low, you had to take the result. Otherwise it would give you an unfair advantage over somebody using points allocation.

Min-maxing is always a problem with points systems. Fortunately the gods punish hubris in mortals; I'm kind of anti-gamist in RPGs so I tend to give bad roleplayers who min/max and indulge in other bad roleplaying behaviours a hard time :twisted:

Cheers,

-Kyle


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:28 am 
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Quote:
Senses gives the same kind of bonuses to Perception as (say) Strength does for Attack. It also affects Stealth a little.

That seems appropriate.

I was wondering about SIZ and how it might affect things in the game other than Health Points and weight (which affects how much their steed can bear)... An awkward GM could have the PCs find treasure in the form of armour - but it would only fit a limited SIZ range. There would then be disadvantages to being a huge, hulking Barbarian (high SIZ score), as most armours would be made to fit average-sized people...
(Chainmail would fit a slightly wider SIZ range than plate - which tended to be made to measure.)

Quote:
Min-maxing is always a problem with points systems. Fortunately the gods punish hubris in mortals; I'm kind of anti-gamist in RPGs so I tend to give bad roleplayers who min/max and indulge in other bad roleplaying behaviours a hard time

While I don't like "min-maxing", I accept is as not unusual behaviour in a game. After all, the object is to "win" most games, right? In role-playing this would be by surviving the adventures and every little helps...

...that said, I find that min-maxers line themselves up for a fall. To optimise a character like that requires a specialised role/outlook (e.g. a Barbarian would optimise their combat characteristics), which means they will suffer when the situation/adventure calls for a different approach (take said Barbarian to the delicate intrigues of Ferromaine, for example).

While I can have gentle fun at the min-maxer's expense that way, I don't come down on them too hard unless they've set themselves out to "lord it" over other PCs. If they're just happy to have a powerful, but limited, character and they don't spoil anyone else's fun - that's fine. If they start pushing others around, or hogging the limelight, (and spoiling the other players' fun) then yes, the Gods will indeed punish their hubris... :twisted:


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