Dragon Warriors
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Management skills... for senior ranks
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Author:  Kharille [ Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Management skills... for senior ranks
My experience with other rpgs is limited, never cared after 99', and even then there was no way I could keep up my subscriptions to dragon magazine or whatever at the time. But I figure in games there is a lot of management skills that are not covered in the original dragwars rules or other rule systems I'm familiar with.

Maybe its not so fun when its not your sword stuck in someone's face, but some subordinate but I figure naturally it becomes less of your responsibility to deflect sword blows and stuff. Maybe adventuring rules could be expanded to cover npc management situations.

I'm thinking about the lone wolf book 4 chasm of doom where you manage your 50 companions who all die, and I think later in the game you start rallying soldiers. Book 3 rules on morale are touching on this. I love how way of the tiger book 4 overlord! looks at you as the leader of a city.

From my experience in adn'd 1st edition, there is some coverage about what high level, 9th level people can do. Is this actually fun to do a management game? Surely some elements about politics and stuff, like the wfrp middenheim intrigue supplement seemed to cover, about high level individuals and their interactions with other posh npcs? Maybe the interactions and 'adventuring' section can be expanded further? Can anyone name examples of non individual rpging games, supplements or ways of handling such activities?
Author:  Myles Kenihan [ Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Management skills... for senior ranks
Harnmaster offered a bit of what you seem to be describing. Not so much the rule system itself - which was very skill oriented - but the Harnworld supplements which described in detail how Harnic societies actually worked. The tech and cultural level of Lythia roughly correspond to that of Legend - roughly 10th to 12th century on Earth - and I have found them very useful in helping to flesh out Dragon Warriors campaign material. There are ( and should be ) differences. For example the trade guilds in Harn are far more evolved and organised than they should be if you're sticking to that kind of time period. My own campaign features far fewer guilds in a more embryonic form. For example in Port Clyster, the Worshipful Brotherhood of St Jacobus of Aelyne is actually a defacto guild of mercers in a very early form and there are no real separate and expansive 'trade guilds' as yet.

Running a good Dragon Warriors campaign in Legend does, in my opinion, require hitting the library and cultivating a good idea of how medieval societies actually worked. Running what I call a 'hard fantasy' campaign can be very rewarding, but it requires players who are able and willing to inhabit a medieval mindset. Not many are able or willing to do that, particularly when doing so causes conflict with their own modern, western, liberal values.

Hope this helps

Myles
Author:  Cobwebbed Dragon [ Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Management skills... for senior ranks
Myles Kenihan wrote:
Running a good Dragon Warriors campaign in Legend does, in my opinion, require hitting the library and cultivating a good idea of how medieval societies actually worked. Running what I call a 'hard fantasy' campaign can be very rewarding, but it requires players who are able and willing to inhabit a medieval mindset. Not many are able or willing to do that, particularly when doing so causes conflict with their own modern, western, liberal values.

This is the hardest thing I've found with my players, used to playing Warhammer, Pathfinder, and their ilk as they are, is that when they play a fantasy RPG they expect to see elves in the streets, magic colleges in every city, and each and every deity, monster, and society reduced to a neat, clinical stat block. They also seem to think that they are at the top of the social pecking order because they are powerful adventurers, able to demand an audience with knights and barons, rather than being at the bottom of it as they are in DW.

I can most heartily recommend Ian Mortimer's Time Traveller's Guide to Medieval England as an accessible starting place to a lot of day-in-the-life inspiration for Ellesland.
Author:  Myles Kenihan [ Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Management skills... for senior ranks
Quote:
I can most heartily recommend Ian Mortimer's Time Traveller's Guide to Medieval England as an accessible starting place to a lot of day-in-the-life inspiration for Ellesland.


I will look that up, thanks. It's actually easier to run Science Fiction campaigns for that reason. Players seem to know they can't just ring up Holt Fasner and upbraid him for being a megalomaniac. Terry Jones' Medieval Lives, by the way, is also a good starting point for an education of medieval society.

I've probably played D&D more than any other system, and it seems to encourage the monster mash style more than any others. I really like DWs 'fey world' approach - elves might exist, but virtually no one in living memory swore to actually seeing one, up close. All kinds of 'magic' salves and potions are available for sale at the marker square or fair, but crossing paths with a real sorcerer in a ruined temple or forgotten keep, could be a nightmarish proposition.

Tailoring characters to urban style adventures in the beginning of a campaign, where intrigue and investigation are the idea seems a good idea and at least gives players a chance to get familiar with the dimensions of the game world. But would be barbarian players who want to run around in chainmail britches swinging a zweihander tend to get a bit disappointed when told that their character is a wiry expert at endemic warfare, only fights under favourable terms and would much prefer to stun the other guy with a sling stone before scurrying in with a trusty knife or club for the coup de grace.
Author:  Kharille [ Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Management skills... for senior ranks
For this topic I was thinking how instead of so many combat and individual skills that we might consider expanding on the 'hirelings' section in the adventuring section. As you advance in rank you also gain more responsibilities in terms of managing npcs and you need to work on leadership skills, employ the looks score more often in getting around society.

We have some guidelines for hiring hotbloods. But what about assembling a little warband, assigning troops to patrol and other functions? Perhaps it gets a bit complicated side. Like a reverse of gygax's chainmail into an rpg... chainmail was a mass combat system right?

I'm also thinking about situations like Lichemaster, the WFRP supplement where the players move beyond being individuals to leadership roles. Maybe something similar in other films and games like seven samurai...

Maybe a high level knight relies less on his sword and more on his looks score.


Reading Adn'd 1e, it does go into some detail about hirelings, hiring sappers and whatnot. Fun read. Suppose, it would take too much work and wouldn't earn enough to justify future publications.
Author:  Myles Kenihan [ Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Management skills... for senior ranks
I think mass combat in an RPG is best dealt with by a mass combat rule system. As for which one, take your pick. I gave up on Warhammer after 4th edition - there seemed to be little point in having regiments of anything other than minotaurs or ogres as long as there were tooled-up heroes and wizards flying around on dragons and the like, clobbering everything. I've heard of Chainmail, but never used it. In the spirit of DW I'd be looking for something sweet and simple. If you are not up for re-inventing the wheel try HOT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hordes_of ... s_(wargame)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hordes_of_the_Things_(wargame)

As far as day to day management of a village or whatever, HarnManor provides all the rules you need for generating and creating the framework for a knight's fee or a baronial fief, which works just as well with DW - and only a tiny bit of tweaking necessary.

In terms of finding a hybrid between rpg and table top wargaming - do you really want to turn your campaign into a series of skirmish sessions? Larger scale battles can be covered narratively if you understand how medieval warfare works. Set piece battles are rare. Raids and sieges are more common. Even when two armies turn up to the same field ( historically ) more often not there is no actual battle as both sides come to terms rather than risk a slaughter of one side or the other.

You seem to be alluding to a Mount and Blade style game mechanic(?)
Author:  Kharille [ Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Management skills... for senior ranks
Heh, heavily influenced by mount and blade. Been playing that like nuts. I guess rpgs are limited by not being able to automate so many calculations compared to a computer that can handle so many figures. Even mount & blade can't handle a lot of elements.

But rather than 8th rank skills of the mighty that make individuals so powerful, how about 10th rank management skills that make them more powerful politically? Could be an element like a Barbarian's ability to gather support and enlist hotbloods and low level hirings, maybe a few 4-6th rank lieutenants? I suppose the problem is nobody would pay money for such a supplement. But it just seems like a natural progression. It wouldn't make 10th rank knights super powerful in terms of fighting, but certainly more resourceful if they could leverage politics, maybe gather other Lords to fight with them.

Rather than having generic knave skills for influencing a particular desired outcome, maybe they would be empowered to call for a ransom or request sanctuary, or make a Ta'Ashim King spare them out of recognition. Fits in with some other rules I've read about on renown.
Author:  Cobwebbed Dragon [ Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Management skills... for senior ranks
Kharille wrote:
But rather than 8th rank skills of the mighty that make individuals so powerful, how about 10th rank management skills that make them more powerful politically? Could be an element like a Barbarian's ability to gather support and enlist hotbloods and low level hirings, maybe a few 4-6th rank lieutenants? I suppose the problem is nobody would pay money for such a supplement. But it just seems like a natural progression. It wouldn't make 10th rank knights super powerful in terms of fighting, but certainly more resourceful if they could leverage politics, maybe gather other Lords to fight with them.

I'm not a fan of professional rank equating to political power. A young king is still king, even if he's only equivalent in combat ability to a first rank knight. Whilst adventuring might make you better at combat or magic, or whatever it is your profession does, political influence should be earned through the narrative.
Author:  rumtap [ Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Management skills... for senior ranks
Cobwebbed Dragon wrote:
I'm not a fan of professional rank equating to political power. A young king is still king, even if he's only equivalent in combat ability to a first rank knight. Whilst adventuring might make you better at combat or magic, or whatever it is your profession does, political influence should be earned through the narrative.


I agree with this. Rank does not equal social status. It is just a game mechanic for measuring the increase in skill one earns from life experience. A knight wouldn't introduce themselves as being 8th rank. They are just a knight with no concept of "rank" in this sense of the word. The player understands it, the character doesn't.

Besides I saw what introducing politics did to Star Wars...
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