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 Post subject: Holy Water
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:02 am 
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Are there any official rules on holy water? From memory I don't think there are.

Do other GMs use holy water in their games and if so how does it work?


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 Post subject: Re: Holy Water
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:13 am 
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Theres info in the Vampire and Hellion entries I think. Also in the Demons section...maybe?

It has uses to Priests and Demonologists and there are some who can use it for Wardings and the like in CD.

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 Post subject: Re: Holy Water
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:33 am 
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rumtap wrote:
Are there any official rules on holy water? From memory I don't think there are.

Do other GMs use holy water in their games and if so how does it work?


Official references:

Holy water can quench a Hand of Glory (Rulebook, p173)

Holy water can cure the effects of a Hag's curse that has struck somebody dumb (Bestiary, p54)

The Priest can use Holy Water to remove a curse (Players Guide, p17)

I think there may also be some reference in The Elven Crystals but I don't have my copy of that available.

In my games, Holy Water is pretty much used on an ad hoc basis. It has no clear definite effects, but especially in the hands of a genuinely devout person may have subtle effects.

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 Post subject: Re: Holy Water
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:28 am 
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Thanks for that.

It seems that holy water (or oil) is a lot more subtle in nature than I was thinking.

So if a player threw holy water over an undead/infernal/demonic creature would it:

just get wet?
inflict some damage? (1d4, 1d6, ?)
some other affect? I like the idea that it could send them into a berserk rage, perhaps with an intelligence test to resist?
a combination of the above
or a random affect? roll on a table to see what happens

Perhaps those with the priest secondary skill (I prefer to think of it as religion) get a bonus depending on their level?

So what does the group think?


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 Post subject: Re: Holy Water
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:42 am 
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rumtap wrote:
Thanks for that.

It seems that holy water (or oil) is a lot more subtle in nature than I was thinking.

So if a player threw holy water over an undead/infernal/demonic creature would it:

just get wet?
inflict some damage? (1d4, 1d6, ?)
some other affect? I like the idea that it could send them into a berserk rage, perhaps with an intelligence test to resist?
a combination of the above
or a random affect? roll on a table to see what happens

Perhaps those with the priest secondary skill (I prefer to think of it as religion) get a bonus depending on their level?

So what does the group think?


I'd be reluctant to give Holy Water an obvious 'game effect'. My reasons for this are that I'm not sure it matches what we see of Legend. In the introduction to the 2008 edition, James Wallis wrote the following:

In Legend, human emotion is just as strong as magic. The scenario ‘A Box of Old Bones’, which originally appeared in White Dwarf magazine in 1985 and which is bound to re-emerge before long, makes it clear that the miracles associated with holy relics are sufficiently rare and vaguely manifested that a fake relic can go unnoticed for years, getting by on the strength of its placebo effect and the willingness of clergy and believers to collude in seeing evidence where they want to see it. Our rule was never to evoke magic if a non-supernatural plot point would do.

and I think that matches Legend pretty well. The power of faith is not something that I think should be clear and unambiguous. So I wouldn't have holy water causing damage because that really makes it clear.

If I wanted a rules effect, I think I would do something like having true holy water having an effect like reducing ATTACK, DEFENCE, MAGICAL ATTACK, and/or MAGICAL DEFENCE if it is used on an undead or demonic creature - especially one or both of the last two. These effects are ambiguous to the 'character' viewer (if not to the GM and players who can see the mathematics behind the scenes) - or maybe it makes them more susceptible to damage - once hit by holy water, they take an extra point of damage from any subsequent attacks.

This is, to an extent, based on type of effects relics have in the game.

I'd be inclined to go with a random table. I don't like the fact that it adds an additional roll to the game, but I like the idea that its unpredictable. I might also make it so the GM knows what effect the water had, but not the players.

So - perhaps roll 2d4

2: -1 to targets MAGICAL ATTACK and MAGICAL DEFENCE
3: -1 to targets MAGICAL ATTACK (or MAGICAL DEFENCE if they have no MAGICAL ATTACK)
4: -1 to targets MAGICAL DEFENCE
5: +1 damage from subsequent attacks
6: -1 to targets DEFENCE
7: -1 to targets ATTACK
8: -1 to targets ATTACK and DEFENCE

I think I might also say that if a creature can only be affected by magical weapons (or has a partial immunity to non-magical weapons) that if they are successfully hit with holy water, they become susceptible to damage from other weapons for 1d6 rounds).

I'm not sure this is particularly balanced - the idea is more important to me than the precise balance at this point, if others want to help refine it, that would be appreciated.

I would stress that I am talking about what I'd call true holy water - I would say a lot of Holy Water is just water. True Holy Water would be that that comes from particular identified springs associated with saints or other particular holiness, made in vessels associated with such things, or where the necessary ritual to make it holy has been performed by a priest of genuine strong faith (this last may not be a high barrier - I would say a lot of priests would be able to make it, but I would want it to be clear that just calling yourself a priest isn't enough because in my games, there are plenty of priests who really aren't that religious except for appearances sake - not necessarily bad people in any way, either, just not unusually pious, either.)

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 Post subject: Re: Holy Water
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:45 am 
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rumtap wrote:
some other affect? I like the idea that it could send them into a berserk rage, perhaps with an intelligence test to resist?


In the case of intelligent undead or demons, this type of thing might also depend on the target's belief, as well as their intelligence. If they believe in the faith associated with the holy water, it might effect them when it wouldn't if they didn't believe in it. This is also why crucifixes do cause most vampires to flinch in my game.

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 Post subject: Re: Holy Water
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:04 am 
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Dreadnought wrote:

In the case of intelligent undead or demons, this type of thing might also depend on the target's belief, as well as their intelligence. If they believe in the faith associated with the holy water, it might effect them when it wouldn't if they didn't believe in it. This is also why crucifixes do cause most vampires to flinch in my game.


Yes an intelligence test would only apply to creatures that can think.

I see what you're doing with belief. I just prefer a more simple "light vs dark" approach, it doesn't matter which torch is being held up to the darkness, as long as the torch bearer believes.


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 Post subject: Re: Holy Water
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:51 am 
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rumtap wrote:
I see what you're doing with belief. I just prefer a more simple "light vs dark" approach, it doesn't matter which torch is being held up to the darkness, as long as the torch bearer believes.


To me, that still requires some sort of 'real power' to exist. It may not be the power the wielder believes in - I can imagine a situation where some sort of 'force of good' is prepared to grant power to those who believe in an entirely different religion, if 'it' feels their intent is good, but there still needs to be something there. And I would still prefer that to be fairly vague, rather than explicit to distinguish it from whatever it is that 'powers' magic which in Legend can be both subtle and obvious.

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 Post subject: Re: Holy Water
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:55 am 
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A few questions:

Is God real?
If so, are demons and the undead his enemies? If they are, why does he let them survive?
How much of the power of a blessed thing (like holy water) comes from God and how much from the person who blessed it?

Perhaps the god of the true faith (and Ta'ashim, and the Old Faith) does not exist and all the powers ascribed to him/her actually just come from people with belief.

Cheers,

-Kyle


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 Post subject: Re: Holy Water
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:08 am 
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WodenKrait wrote:
A few questions:

Is God real?


That's a question I would not want answered in a Dragon Warriors game. And my ideas stem from that.

I suppose I would say that in my conception of Legend, there are certainly real powers of good, and real powers of evil - for want of better terms. Some of these, including some very powerful ones, can sometimes manifest in a 'real form'. But I wouldn't want an 'ultimate power of good' or an 'ultimate power of evil' to be something of this type - and the True Faith (and I would assume Ta'ashim as well) seems to postulate the idea of an ultimate power of good.

WodenKrait wrote:
If so, are demons and the undead his enemies? If they are, why does he let them survive?


They would be his enemies if he exists - or perhaps agents of his greater enemy. Why does he let them survive? That's a question of deep theology - the official version according to the True Faith in my conception of Legend is the same reason all evil exists - to give people the chance to counter it. Legend is an imperfect reflection of the heavenly realm - and it is up to men to perfect it.

WodenKrait wrote:
How much of the power of a blessed thing (like holy water) comes from God and how much from the person who blessed it?


Again, in my game, such power is a manifestation of the force of good. If the true faith God exists, that force comes from him - if he doesn't it comes from somewhere else. Particularly holy individuals - saints in the language of the Selentium Branch of the True Faith - may be able to manifest and 'control' this power themselves in at least some fashion - but that is more a matter of the 'power behind it' granting them a share of the wider power.

WodenKrait wrote:
Perhaps the god of the true faith (and Ta'ashim, and the Old Faith) does not exist and all the powers ascribed to him/her actually just come from people with belief.


Certainly, you could do it that way.

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co-author Dragon Warriors Players Guide


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