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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:59 am 
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I think that's one of the obvious rationalisations, but to me it is very unconvincing. Leaving aside the fact that the rules never say anything of the kind, consider the following:

1: If DW "running" speed is really just a brisk jog, your character should be able to put on a burst of speed and go faster than this when they really need to, such as when disengaging from combat. They can't.
2: If DW "running" speed is really just a brisk jog, animals with a high sustained movement rate (such as wolves) should be much faster. They're not.
3: If DW "running" speed is really just a brisk jog, you shouldn't need to spend an entire round slowing down when they need to stop moving at this speed.
4: The bestiary clearly states that the higher movement rate is "the maximum move distance, i.e. when running, galloping etc.". Galloping is by definition a horse's maximum running gait. The description conspicuously does not use the words "trot" or "canter" here.
5: If DW "running" speed is really just "jogging" speed, it should be possible to enter combat at this speed. It is not.
6: 20 seconds is probably about the longest you'd ever need this rate of speed given they way it is used in the game. Long distance movement rates are covered in chapter 18 of the rulebook.

The fact is, the movement values given are wonky. The question is, why?

Cheers,

-Kyle


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:37 am 
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I suspect Dave had no access to wikipedia. I read on wiki that horses have amazing night vision. That would be panoptical vision and not 'normal' as defined in book 4.

Shall we work on DW 2ed?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:13 pm 
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Yeah those vision types are all over the place. According to the rules, most animals have normal vision, wolves get elfsight, and sabre-tooth tigers (and therefore presumably regular big cats) have panoptical!

In reality (according to the unimpeachable internet), its not just horses that have good night vision. Crocodiles, Dogs, Bears, Mules, and possibly pythons do too.

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-Kyle


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:25 pm 
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Since we're on the topic, I would like to revisit the disengagement rules. I know fleeing troops are vulnerable, and with good reason. I think a fleeing soldier who discards his sword and shield will have the advantage over someone charging with weapon extended in terms of speed. Also the auto hit it a bit too simple. I really believe assassins and barbarians with their higher mobility should have the advantage at least over others. So I'd say an automatic hit at ATTACK vs EVASION would be in order.

Cavalry were great at running down fleeing troops. Should be some system of rear attacks and getting +1/2 damage from striking from horseback.

Maybe a Knight on horseback can lower his DEFENCE at 4 to 1 ATTACK, that way their superior weaponskill and higher DEFENCE would come into play.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:29 am 
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If it wasn't such a futile exercise, now would be when I offer my opinion that a simple action point system in DW would solve all these problems.

But it is so I won't.

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-Kyle


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:04 am 
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Not futile, but time consuming... well, you'd also have to sell this system. Might as well rename it and borrow from some existing franchise, maybe the 50 shades of grey rpg or harry potter rpg if it hasn't already been taken.

I love Julian Gollop, a squad level turn based strategy game designer. He did amazing stuff with action points, from Rebelstar Raiders 84' to Xcom 94'. British game designer now residing in Bulgaria.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:28 pm 
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Quote:
1: If DW "running" speed is really just a brisk jog, your character should be able to put on a burst of speed and go faster than this when they really need to, such as when disengaging from combat. They can't.
2: If DW "running" speed is really just a brisk jog, animals with a high sustained movement rate (such as wolves) should be much faster. They're not.
3: If DW "running" speed is really just a brisk jog, you shouldn't need to spend an entire round slowing down when they need to stop moving at this speed.
4: The bestiary clearly states that the higher movement rate is "the maximum move distance, i.e. when running, galloping etc.". Galloping is by definition a horse's maximum running gait. The description conspicuously does not use the words "trot" or "canter" here.
5: If DW "running" speed is really just "jogging" speed, it should be possible to enter combat at this speed. It is not.
6: 20 seconds is probably about the longest you'd ever need this rate of speed given they way it is used in the game. Long distance movement rates are covered in chapter 18 of the rulebook.

The fact is, the movement values given are wonky. The question is, why?


I've come rather late to this thread (but better late than never, they say)...

Here are the rules I've been using for quite some time regarding movement in DW. They seem to work, but I'm open to comments / suggestions.
(This doesn't deal with disengaging from combat, but can be used once out of reach and running!)


Movement in Melee Combat

Movement on foot uses the character’s Movement Rate. If the character is mounted then the mount’s Movement Rate is used. Each Combat Round the character may move a number of metres up to his Movement Rate characteristic and engage in combat (either in attacking or retreating). A character or creature may move more than this score in a Combat Round but cannot then attack, though it may defend itself if set upon by an opponent that moves into weapon range (1½ metres or less).

If a character or creature has Surprised its foe, it can move up to double its Movement Rate and attack in the same Combat Round (see the rules on Basic Combat).

The Movement Rate is the number of metres which an encumbered character or creature (an armoured warrior, or a horse carrying a rider, for example) can move and fight in a single Combat Round. A character’s Movement Rate is calculated by adding his Strength and Reflexes then dividing the result by ten; fractions are rounded off.

Movement Rate = (Strength + Reflexes) / 10

Example

Aescwine the Barbarian has a Strength score of 15 and a Reflexes score of 10. Aescwine’s Movement Rate is (15 + 10) / 10 = 2½, rounded up to 3.

The normal distance that a character or creature can move in a single Combat Round is its Movement Rate / 4. This is considered normal walking speed. For horses (and other four-legged creatures) this speed is considered a trot; faster movement may be considered a canter. Galloping is when the horse moves at its full running speed (see below).

Running

Running flat out allows the character or creature to move its Movement Rate x 8 per Combat Round, but if this is sustained for more than a few Rounds, a Reflexes or Strength roll may be required every subsequent Round, at the GamesMaster’s option. Failure indicates that the character slows down, while a fumble indicates exhaustion and collapse. Modifiers may be applied if the sprint is continued.

Encumbrance

A character or creature may be ‘encumbered’ in DRAGON WARRIORS. Characters and horses are usually encumbered during the game as their normal state of affairs, and no special rules apply. However, characters and horses that are unencumbered gain an increase of +2 to their basic Movement Rate. Thus Aescwine, with his Movement Rate of 3 would move 5 metres in combat when unencumbered.

Encumbrance is defined as a ‘heavy load’. Clothing, or even a sword and shield, are not enough to constitute a heavy load for a character; but full armour, weapons, and a heavy backpack do qualify as a heavy load. An armoured warrior and heavy saddle is clearly a heavy load for a horse to carry, while a small girl riding bareback is not much of a burden for most steeds.

When deciding encumbrance, the GamesMaster is in charge of judging specific cases. In borderline situations, add 1 point, rather than 2, to the Movement Rate of the character or creature in question.

If a character or creature is bearing an extremely heavy load, perhaps carrying another armoured warrior on his back, the GamesMaster may wish to reduce the Movement Rate by 1 point.

Note that the +1 or +2 bonus is already included in the Movement Rates for characters and creatures that do not normally bear heavy burdens (i.e. giants, bandits, hawks, bears, dragons, peasants, etc.).

Horses are assumed to be encumbered by the weight of an armoured rider or a heavy pack. So a sumpter horse bearing an empty pack would have a Movement Rate of 7 (5 + 2).

As a rule of thumb:

UNENCUMBERED:
(+2 bonus) Unarmoured and no more than a third of the maximum number of items allowed are worn or carried.
LIGHT ENCUMBRANCE:
(+1 bonus) Soft or hard leather armour worn and bearing no more than half the maximum allowed number of items.
ENCUMBERED:
Studded leather, chainmail or plate armour worn and up to a full load carried.
VERY ENCUMBERED:
(-1 penalty) Armoured and lifting up to twice the maximum allowed number of items.

Chases

Sometimes two characters will chase each other on foot or on horse, or a creature will be chased by several characters, etc. If the Movement Rates are different, the character or creature with the higher rate catches the lower. If the rates are the same, but one is more encumbered than the other, the GamesMaster must make a ruling based on common sense. For example, two characters racing on identical horses might find that the horse carrying the lighter load (the least heavy character) will gradually outdistance the other. Alternatively, opposed rolls on appropriate characteristics or skills can resolve these situations. For instance, when a character chases another, opposed Horsemanship or Reflexes rolls might be appropriate, with the winner catching or escaping the other. The GamesMaster may wish to apply modifiers to the rolls at his discretion (based on the exact situation).


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:43 pm 
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Testing the above rules…

A character with STR 18 and REF 18 (the Human maximum) would have a Movement Rate of (18 + 18) / 10 = 4

Casting aside all encumbering items (remaining in ordinary clothes) the character now has a Movement Rate of 4 + 2 = 6 metres / Combat Round.

They would Run at 6 x 8 = 48 metres / Combat Round.

This means that they would run 96 metres in 12 seconds. Bearing in mind that this isn’t on a running track (more likely a muddy path), they’re wearing boots rather than sports shoes… I’d say that’s in the right sort of range. :geek:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:43 am 
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One major factor would be terrain. I've made some early entries on terrain rules. You could be running through a shallow marsh, vegetation, or maybe some woodland and it would impede your movement. Bloodsword touches on that with walls and 'inaccessible to player' terrain.

I figure it could be much more interesting, with barbarians and assassins coming out of hidden places. I would be inclined to work on the 'charge' rule of 3m, maybe theres an alternative involving a 10m move and attack. Perhaps a weak 'shock attack' system where you get to attack and the targets only have full DEFENCE and EVASION.

What about Kurlanic barbarians jumping out of trees onto selentine soldiers? How to account for that?


And since we were talking about running away, what about disengaging combat by jumping off a cliff? Also how fast can a guy climb up a tree to avoid combat?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:21 am 
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Quote:
One major factor would be terrain

You can cover that fairly easily in one of two ways:

1) Apply a difficulty factor (in a similar manner to the climbing rules - DW book 1, pages 65-66) to the terrain. Anyone with Reflexes lower than the difficulty factor would cross the terrain without difficulty. Anyone with Reflexes lower than the difficulty factor would have to roll equal to, or less than, their Reflexes score to succeed; or

2) Have the character check against Reflexes or Strength (on 1d20) and apply a modifier depending on the nature of the terrain. Reflexes might be used where there are obstacles (e.g. bushes, uneven ground, scrubland) and Strength might be used in marshes once the character has got waist-deep in water (and is almost swimming).

Quote:
...with barbarians and assassins coming out of hidden places.

Worth checking for Surprise.

In the standard DW rules (Book 1, page 40), if a character surprises their foe "he may move half is movement and attack in the same Combat Round." This would effectively be your
Quote:
'charge' rule of 3m
as it allows for a 5m move + attack. In my rules posted above, a character or creature has Surprised its foe, it can move up to double its Movement Rate and attack in the same Combat Round (for most, this would be a move of 4 - 6m and then attack).

This would cover jumping out from behind trees onto unsuspecting legionaries. Note that if the Selentine soldiers succeed their PERCEPTION, then the attack may fail...

Quote:
what about disengaging combat by jumping off a cliff?

I think that's the easy part - it's the landing that's tricky. (Q.v. fallling rules, DW book 1, page 66)

Quote:
Also how fast can a guy climb up a tree to avoid combat?

Anyone who's tried climbing trees when encumbered with kit will know this usually isn't very fast. The only real chance of success here is to start climbing while the enemy is still some distance away.
It also depends on the tree - are their handholds within easy reach (can the character even get off the ground)? Do branches get entangled in the character's armour/kit? Is the branch actually dead and snaps when weight is applied to it? &c., &c... Possibly best left to the GM to apply Reflexes checks?


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