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 Post subject: Re: The Sapper in Action
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:10 am 
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I think Wodenkrait was _very_ generous ascribing points to the sapper by virtue of maybe having some knowledge or tools that could be useful - I know he's trying to reverse his bias towards sapperscepticism, but it was a little extreme... By Wodenkrait's reasoning, all professions could be useful. I'd rather have compared specific named skills/abilities of the sapper in each challenge (and named them...), just as specific spells were mentioned for the magickers.


This is a valid point, and I think you would certainly have to regard the score the Sapper acheived asan extreme high-end estimate, a product of me playing devil's advocate quite strongly. The problem is the Sapper's skills and abilities are only vaguely described (the "general knowledge" section is very much open to interpretation). If we restricted the sapper strictly to digging ditches, building walls, and redirecting water, then his score would probably be about the same as the elementalist.

Quote:
I do also take issue with the usefulness score of the magickers, though, because they can only be useful in a couple of challenges before their spells are exhausted so, whilst magickers have broad versatility, they have to be very conservative about where it is applied (i.e., typically when all other non-magical options have been exhausted). Magickers should probably have a cap on the number of points they can score with spells and then have to rely on their native knowledges and abilities to score further points.


Well, maybe. For me this was introducing too many variables into something that's already quite laborious. With the possibility of recouping magic points, carrying a potion of replenishment, and making it through the whole adventure without fatiquing, I didn't care to do the statistical analysis required to produce better numbers ;) . Perhaps I could just apply a cumulative 10% (number pulled from thin air) penalty to wizards' score per challenge where magic is used.

If we do this with the numbers above and then eliminate any points the Sapper received for vague reasons (essentially, leaving him just with the 2 points for preparing fieldworks or tunnels for the final approach to the Manor) the results are:
Attachment:
DBD_By Profession_revised.png
DBD_By Profession_revised.png [ 20.64 KiB | Viewed 4224 times ]


Cheers,

-Kyle


Last edited by WodenKrait on Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Sapper in Action
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:11 am 
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I just realised I forgot about the Elementalist's Raw Power ability. I'll tweak the scores and update them shortly.

Cheers,

-Kyle


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 Post subject: Re: The Sapper in Action
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:44 am 
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early ranking sappers are of course limited in ability. But think of the great force multiplier factor when they attain higher ranks. Time becomes another Axis on the graph demonstrating their usefulness over time. Masada was not conquered in a day!!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masada

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Masada

In 72, the Roman governor of Iudaea, Lucius Flavius Silva, led Roman legion X Fretensis, a number of auxiliary units and Jewish prisoners of war, totaling some 15,000 men and women (of whom an estimated 8,000 to 9,000 were fighting men[14]) to lay siege to the 960 people in Masada. The Roman legion surrounded Masada and built a circumvallation wall, before commencing construction of a siege ramp against the western face of the plateau, moving thousands of tons of stones and beaten earth to do so. Josephus does not record any attempts by the Sicarii to counterattack the besiegers during this process, a significant difference from his accounts of other sieges of the revolt.

The ramp was completed in the spring of 73, after probably two to three months of siege. A giant siege tower with a battering ram was constructed and moved laboriously up the completed ramp, while the Romans assaulted the wall, discharging "a volley of blazing torches against ... a wall of timber",[3] allowing the Romans to finally breach the wall of the fortress on April 16, 73 CE.[15][16][17] When the Romans entered the fortress, however, they found it to be "a citadel of death."[3] The Jewish rebels had set all the buildings but the food storerooms ablaze and had committed mass suicide, declaring "a glorious death ... preferable to a life of infamy."[15]

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 Post subject: Re: The Sapper in Action
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:30 am 
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early ranking sappers are of course limited in ability. But think of the great force multiplier factor when they attain higher ranks. Time becomes another Axis on the graph demonstrating their usefulness over time. Masada was not conquered in a day!!!


Yeah but that applies to the other professions too. At this stage it is difficult to see how the Sapper of a given rank could ever be a credible match for just about any other profession of that rank. However, lets see what the other adventures have to offer...

Cheers,

-Kyle


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 Post subject: Re: The Sapper in Action
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:37 am 
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Final version. With the very potent Raw Power ability of elementalists factored in, wizards growing steadily weaker over the course of the adventure, and only explicitly stated skills and abilities allowed in the scoring, the results are:

Attachment:
DBD_By Profession_final.png
DBD_By Profession_final.png [ 20.67 KiB | Viewed 4220 times ]


Hmmm...

Coming soon(ish): The King Under the Forest

Cheers,

-Kyle


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 Post subject: Re: The Sapper in Action
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:51 am 
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Kharille wrote:
Indeed, military engineering was in many ways institutionally endemic in Roman military culture, as demonstrated by the fact that each Roman legionary had as part of his equipment a shovel, alongside his gladius (sword) and pila (spears).

A couple of interesting points there:
  1. If we're talking about Roman (Selentine?) culture, then what place do sappers have in Ellesland, which "feels" a bit more like 10th-14th century Britain? Perhaps the Sapper would be better as part of a wider focus on the Selentine Empire? That would provide the cultural context in which a sapper might fit better, rather than trying to shoehorn this role into the core Elleslandic setting (I have similar feelings about the Assassin, of course...)
  2. Secondly, I think your comment highlights that the "sapper" is not a standalone profession but a package of training/skills that could be bolted onto a generic military/warrior profession.

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 Post subject: Re: The Sapper in Action
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:46 pm 
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Secondly, I think your comment highlights that the "sapper" is not a standalone profession but a package of training/skills that could be bolted onto a generic military/warrior profession.

From one point of view this makes a lot of sense. In my own games I had a profession of Mercenary which was a bit like a Knight without the social status, but with a bunch of extra optional skills that a soldier of fortune would need but which the lofty knight would be too noble (in both senses of the word) to have. This included things like field surgery, dirty fighting, 'streetwise', and some of what we might call sapping (if that is a word in this context) although obviously lacking the more advanced abilities that Kharille has incorporated into his Sapper profession, such as electrical engineering and robotics. In this sense a Sapper can be considered basically a mercenary who has chosen to specialise in field engineering rather than other martial abilities.

However, Kharille's version of the Sapper is a bit more ambitious than this. He has basically conceived of a combination of field engineer, 'gadgeteer' (to use a GURPS term), alchemist, and natural philosopher. This is really a different kettle of fish.

Cheers,

-Kyle


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 Post subject: Re: The Sapper in Action
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:55 pm 
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Well, wait until you get the death rays and siege weapons, in the late game, and with the amazing generic innovation...


....




....


Adding wheels! This'll turn anything into a monstrous, super annihilator...


Anyway, the Selentine left their engineering knowledge when they left Ellesland... Maybe knights weren't into building forts everywhere, but that can be attributed to impatience and an unwillingness to secure their positions, and get their hands dirty...

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