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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:41 pm 
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Hi all ! I read many suggestions on this topic, :)
Quote:
« I have a house rule that halves your Defence (rounded down) if you're unarmed and facing an armed opponent. And that could include Defence that has been split between multiple opponents, some of whom may be armed and some not. »


Balanced ad simple idea , even I won’t apply it to an assassin with the skill « unarmed combat »

Quote:
« Coup de Grace . When attacking a foe with 0 defence (asleep, unawares, immobilised), roll attack as normal. A miss is considered a normal hit, and a normal hit is considered a critical hit. If a natural critical hit is rolled, it does double the usual damage. »


If by unaware you mean unconscious (in all cases not active) , this could reward the party which takes advantage of the situation (but for me would not work for a surprise attack where the foe is concious and the only bonus is he does not ripost).

Quote:
« Crossed my mind, a system which could be implemented on an excel file. Every time your health goes down your strength goes down in the same proportion. »


I agree with Starkad : it would more realistic but complexify the rules (whic are simple in DW) and would be deadly for adventurers with many fights in an adventure or campaign. You can test it in « the elven cristal » or « power of the darkness » campaigns and tell us.
The only penality system I would choose is against high level spellcasters (I dont know maybe a percentage of spell failure if he is wounded this turn or the previous one ?) .
For describing the power of sorcerers, mini spoil on "the elven cristal" :
if the party does not utterly surprise the Duke Darian , Oliver Johnson gave a second chance to kill him quickly because the 10 th level sorcerer has only 5 in reflexes. If he had 18 in reflexes , then : Bastion, all defensive spells, firestorm or hecatomb and here it goes…

Quote:
« One way to do this would be to allow skilled Attackers (or anyone else actually) to sacrifice Attack points in exchange for extra AB or damage »


Hum , with this system a High rank knight with a magical sword can one-shot a simple man. I am not agree with that,  . For the ABP, the assassin has a skill which gives him a +1 with blades.
I would see this as mighty skill (name : « concentration and precision ») for fighter : the fighter can sacrifice 4 points in attack to add +2 at his abp roll against an actual armour. The concentration required limits this skill one combat a day.
Then it could be used against a knight (of the party) with a +7 or +8 armure protection.

As the topic is about unarmed people and I don t like super hero, do you have an idea for an unarmed crowd dealing with a knight in plate armour ?
I try to find a formula , a check roll using attack succeeded and strength , where the fighter could be grabbed , put down and neutralized by the crowd (despite his armour).
Feel free to share your ideas, :)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:07 pm 
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Quote:
As the topic is about unarmed people and I don t like super hero, do you have an idea for an unarmed crowd dealing with a knight in plate armour ?
I try to find a formula , a check roll using attack succeeded and strength , where the fighter could be grabbed , put down and neutralized by the crowd (despite his armour).

If they're not simply throwing stones at him from a distance (and probably ineffectually), they would close to Grapple.

Note that a crowd throwing stones can actually be quite dangerous, as the chance of Critical Hits occurring (which get past armour) increases with the number of missiles. A crowd would have to be pretty riled to attack a knight though, as that's une jacquerie...

DW doesn't have rules for Grappling, so you have to come up with your own. I used a skill based on Strength and then used opposed rolls to see how successful the grapple is... But it gets complicated when others want to join in, when someone wants to hit someone who is grappled...
(Grappling - i.e. wrestling - is complicated because there are so many things that can happen. I've yet to come across a system that deals with it particularly well.)


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:12 pm 
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Starkad wrote:
(Grappling - i.e. wrestling - is complicated because there are so many things that can happen. I've yet to come across a system that deals with it particularly well.)

Me too... I have some simple grapple rules that I'll share someday but I also added a sidebar to the write-up of Dave Morris' Hollow Men adventure that had some simple competitive wrestling rules:

http://www.cobwebbedforest.co.uk/librar ... lowMen.pdf

These could possibly be fleshed out to make them combatative instead, should someone need a quick and dirty system.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:26 pm 
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Quote:
I also added a sidebar to the write-up of Dave Morris' Hollow Men adventure that had some simple competitive wrestling rules

Page 7, for anyone checking. ;)

Was it your idea to use a photo and map of Stokesay Castle?
(Interesting place: as it was rented for most of its existence, very few alterations were made. Thus you get to see what a 13th Century castle actually looked like.)


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:39 pm 
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Starkad wrote:
Was it your idea to use a photo and map of Stokesay Castle?
(Interesting place: as it was rented for most of its existence, very few alterations were made. Thus you get to see what a 13th Century castle actually looked like.)

Would that I could take the credit, but it was Dave that told me Stokesay Castle was his inspiration for the scenario, so I just ran with it - 5 minutes of Googling and a few stock effects washed across a suitable image and <boom> I had an atmospheric cover pic.

And, yes, it's well worth a visit - it's the finest example of a 13th-century fortified manor left standing in the UK (or so English Heritage would have you believe, although I have no reason to doubt their claim). Unfortunately, when we visited it, the cellars were closed so we could only wander around the above-ground sections, the grounds, the church, and (most importantly) the tea room :). If you want to make a day of your sojourn to Shropshire, there's also Ludlow Castle not far from Stokesay.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:58 pm 
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Quote:
...but it was Dave that told me Stokesay Castle was his inspiration for the scenario, so I just ran with it...

That's a good enough reason for me. ;)

Quote:
If you want to make a day of your sojourn to Shropshire, there's also Ludlow Castle not far from Stokesay.

Oddly enough, that's exactly what I did when I visited Stokesay (as Ludlow is just down the road). Ludlow is well worth the visit; apart from being an impressive castle, it has one of the three surviving Norman round churches in Britain and the doors to the great hall are still in situ (despite the building being in ruins).


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:21 am 
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Didn't Elven crystals have a bit about people getting dragged by swamp men or something like that?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:30 am 
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Quote:
Didn't Elven crystals have a bit about people getting dragged by swamp men or something like that?

Yes it does (well remembered)!

DW book 3, pages 44-45 has the Swamp folk compare their combined average Strength against that of the victim in an attempt to submerge him. It might do in a pinch, but doesn't really cover things like "pinning" an opponent to the ground, or inflicting damage...


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:01 am 
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First inclination I have is to create a strange series of rolls, vs rolls, take into account body weight. I guess it’s a roleplaying game so why not? But then if it ain't simple, we ain't going anywhere. I think you should just use, strength 13 beats strength 12. Roll if equally matched. I think climbing rules are simple enough, automatic success if your stats are good enough.


At the back of my mind I think there is a blinding mechanic. I think something spits poison in book 4. Perhaps this needs to be removed from the rules and put into a 'revised rules of adventuring'. And maybe some garotte rules relating to book 5 darkness elementalists....

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:49 pm 
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Speaking of a strange series of rolls, here's the rules I use for unarmed combat. I'm not entirely happy with them, but can't think of anything better right now.

UNARMED COMBAT

There are two basic types of unarmed combat; brawling and grappling. Brawling is similar to normal combat, but the unarmed fighters attempt to defeat their opponent by bashing, punching, gouging, biting, kicking, and so on. Grappling is more akin to wrestling and is used either in friendly wrestling contests or in earnest attempts to pin an opponent to the ground and render him helpless. The advantage of grappling one’s opponent is that damage is done regardless of armour and so is a good option to use if unarmed and facing a heavily-armoured opponent.

Brawling

This is resolved like normal combat. If the opponents are wearing metal gauntlets and armour, the damage they inflict is real, as if they were using weapons. If fighting bare-handed, a record of all damage inflicted in the combat must be kept and, at the end of the fight, only half the damage is permanent (round fractions up); the rest of the damage is recovered, being bruises that cause a certain amount of discomfort but no lasting damage.

Grappling

Dropping weapons and leaping on his opponent, a character attempts to obtain a hold on his foe and defeat him by brute strength. The first Round is fought as if using a weapon, but using fists instead (d3, 2 – like in Brawling). After a successful hit, an Armour Bypass Roll must be made to see if damage was inflicted, but a hold is obtained regardless of the result. Once a hold is established, an opposed Grapple Roll is made each Round; the winner inflicting damage on the loser. If one fighter didn’t obtain a hold, he must keep making a Hit Roll until successful or he does not inflict damage (even if he wins the Grapple Roll), as he is merely attempting to break his opponent’s hold.

Once a hold has been established on an opponent, a number of situations can arise depending on the result of the opponents’ Grapple Rolls, as follows.
1) Tie (rolls equal, or Critical Success vs. Critical Success) - No damage is done by either side. A stand-off.
2) Success vs. Partial Success - This is where both succeeded their Grapple Roll, but one was higher (the winner). The winner does normal damage to the loser.
3) Success vs. Fail - Not only does the winner do damage, but he pins his opponent; the pinned character can do nothing but struggle until he breaks the pin, which is achieved by winning a Combat Round. When he breaks the pin, the character does not inflict damage, he merely breaks out of an uncomfortable situation. Normal opposed Grapple Rolls are resumed…
4) Critical Success vs. Success - The winner inflicts normal damage and pins his opponent as in 3) above.
5) Critical Success vs. Fail - The winner inflicts double damage and pins his opponent as in 3) above.
6) Critical Success vs. Fumble - The loser has done something terribly wrong, just as his opponent performed all the right moves; the loser is pinned helpless below the victor, completely at his mercy. Vae victis...
7) Fail vs. Fail / Fail vs. Fumble - Neither opponent succeeds in damaging the other. Those characters who Failed retain their holds on their opponent, while those who Fumbled lose their hold and have to roll to hit again next Round.
8) Fumble vs. Fumble - Both opponents lose their holds on the other. Combat resumes from the start!

Damage inflicted during grappling is treated the same as if the opponents were fighting bare-handed; only half the damage is permanent, the rest is bruising. Of course, the character has the option of not inflicting any damage, merely holding his opponent helpless. This could be useful in restraining a friend who has been possessed by an evil spirit, perhaps...

Dropping weapons to tackle an armed opponent puts the character at a serious disadvantage. If the opponent is wielding a weapon longer than a shortsword, he gets a bonus of +2 to his Combat Initiative (this is cumulative with the Great Spear’s bonus to Combat Initiative). If this means the opponent gets to strike first, he may add his Rank to his ATTACK score for that strike, and any further strikes until the character attempting to grapple obtains a hold. If the character attempting to grapple still goes first despite his opponent’s bonus and succeeds in grappling him, then the opponent has no choice but to engage in grappling combat.

Example

Sir Richard is visiting Cantorbridge during the Feast of St Stephan. It is late, and he is returning to his lodgings when a drunken barbarian looms out of the shadows and swings a battle-axe at him!

As he was not expecting trouble, Sir Richard is not wearing any armour (AF 0) and is armed only with a dagger. His opponent, though hampered by drink, is wearing chainmail, is wielding a battle-axe and is too close to allow him time to draw his dagger (this would take one action, and the barbarian is already upon him). Sir Richard decides to leap at his opponent in a desperate attempt to make the fight more equal…

The barbarian has a
Reflexes score of 12, and with the bonus for striking at an unarmed man with a long weapon this is increased to a Combat Initiative of 14. Sir Richard’s Combat Initiative (Reflexes) is 16 so he still attacks first; he lunges, but the barbarian side-steps and Sir Richard fails to grapple his foe. Now the barbarian strikes, adding his Rank to his ATTACK score; Sir Richard’s agility saves him as the barbarian’s axe misses by a narrow margin!

Next Round Sir Richard lunges again and hits; his punch is not able to inflict damage on the barbarian due to the chainmail, but he has obtained a hold on his foe. The barbarian is forced to drop his battle-axe and attempt to get a hold on this troublesome knight. The struggle continues, but now the odds are much more even...


If a character is grappled by two or more opponents, he is at a serious disadvantage and must split his Grapple skill between the number of opponents and fight each one every Round as though it were a separate fight. In return, the character can only attempt to grapple one of his opponents (but can take damage and be pinned by either, or both, of them). He can divide up his Grapple skill in any way against his opponents and can alter this allocation from Round to Round; though if an opponent achieves a pin, the character cannot change the Grapple skill he allocated against that opponent until he breaks free.

If two or more opponents succeed in having the character pinned at the same time, then the character may be rendered helpless, as both his arms are held tightly by his foes. The character may continue to struggle, but this is pointless unless his Grapple skill is higher than the combined Grapple skill of his opponents.

Example

Sir Gereint is set upon by two thugs who try to wrestle him to the ground. Gereint’s Grapple skill is 18 (equal to his Strength +2) and the two thugs both have a Grapple skill of 12. Gereint decides to split his skill equally between the two thugs.

In the first Combat Round all three achieve holds on each other. Next Round, one thug manages to pin one of Gereint’s arms, but Gereint in turn gets an arm-lock (a pin) on the other thug. Gereint has no choice but to keep the
Grapple score of 9 against the thug pinning him, even though he would like to increase it (to improve his chances of breaking the hold). The next Round goes badly for Gereint; not only does he fail to break the hold on him, but the other thug manages to break free. It isn’t long before this thug also achieves a hold on Gereint, who now finds himself at the thugs’ mercy.

Sir Gereint continues to struggle, but his
Grapple of 18 is less than the thugs combined Grapple of 24; his struggles are in vain. All Gereint can do at this point is shout for help, hoping that someone is nearby who can save him, or surrender to the thugs - not a pleasant situation to be in...

The Grapple skill is equal to the character’s Strength, modified by Strength bonus, but can be improved by training during the Winter Phase. If the character does not train any other skill he can improve his Grapple score by one point. Note that Grapple can only be improved during the Winter Phase; it cannot be improved on attaining a new Rank and does not get skill checks. The maximum score a character’s Grapple skill can reach is equal to his Strength X 2.


Last edited by Starkad on Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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