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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:25 pm 
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Hi!
In the players guide about Mercania : I read it "Mercanian Barbarians often favour a spear and shield"

normally a spear if I am not wrong deals 2d4 : 4 damages using 2 hands

If we use only one hand for the spear, any idea what would be the dommages, and how we would use this weapon please?

In the same paragraph , I have it :
"Swords generally are only owned
by those of higher social status or those who have
claimed such weapons in battle. Mail is likewise a
mark of higher status."
I know mail as a chainmail armour. I know maul as weapon. When they write mail, they were previously talking of the weapon carried by mercanians. Is mail a weapon? Do you have a link with a picture please?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:57 pm 
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Quote:
In the players guide about Mercania : I read it "Mercanian Barbarians often favour a spear and shield"

normally a spear if I am not wrong deals 2d4 : 4 damages using 2 hands

Never mind Mercanians... Consider ancient Emphidian hoplites... ;)

I think of the spear in DW as more akin to a sarissa or a pike (or just a long spear). I had my own rules for several weapons and, among these, I split the spear into "great spear" and "short spear". For what it's worth, here they are:

Great Spear
(2d4, 4)
This is a two-handed heavy spear used to stab. Many spears are 'winged'; they have horizontal lugs beneath the spear blade which act much like the quillons of a sword - these spears are favoured by foot soldiers.
Spears can be used as lances. If a winged spear is used as a lance, a successful parry by the character's shield will completely block the charge (i.e. no damage is inflicted) but he must still check to see if he is unhorsed or knocked over.
The Great Spear negates the footman’s -1 ATTACK disadvantage when fighting a horseman. It also negates the +1 ATTACK lance modifier against non-lance weapons. As it is a long weapon, the user gains +4 to Combat Initiative until the opponent scores a hit, at which point this no longer applies - the foe has closed the gap to come within his weapon's reach. This bonus does not apply if the spearman is Surprised.

Short Spear
(2d3, 3)
Shorter than the Great Spear, this is a long stick with a pointed head on its end. It is used one-handed, unlike the Great Spear, and can be used with a shield.
It is too short to gain the special combat bonuses of the Great Spear, but it can be used from horseback as a lance. In this instance, the user does not gain the +1 ATTACK modifier against non-lance weapons as the spear is too short. Also, if used against an opponent using a Great Spear as a lance, the Great Spear will strike first.

To this day, I'm not sure if a one-handed spear shouldn't simply be a (d8,4) weapon. Any thoughts?

Quote:
Is mail a weapon?

No. "Mail" is short for varieties of chain mail. In French, it's une cotte de mailles.

Link as requested: http://mynormandie.fr/bataille-dhastings/


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:02 pm 
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I generally just use the javelin stats for a light spear you could wield one handed.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:22 pm 
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Quote:
I generally just use the javelin stats for a light spear you could wield one handed.

That's what made me wonder about using (d8,4).

I seem to recall allowing spears to be used with a shield, but at -2 ATTACK (no penalty to DEFENCE as the shield protects). On balance, it made the spear quite powerful compared to other weapons.
(The 2d4 Armour By-pass roll makes a spear very effective against light armour.)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:14 am 
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One approach. The shield is worn over the forearm. You still have two hands to wield your spear. Same thing, wearing a shield and holding a dagger on your left arm. No reason that is not possible.

I think some Mungodan short spear would be nice to have. d6,4 maybe?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:22 am 
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Instead of wearing the shield on the arm, it could be used, as Starkad said above, in the manner of a Greek Hoplite, with full ATTACK and DEFENCE. Maybe it could be taken as a Skill between 2nd and 4th Ranks, or Mercanian Barbarians get it immediately.

Thoughts?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:53 pm 
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Acoma wrote:
Instead of wearing the shield on the arm, it could be used, as Starkad said above, in the manner of a Greek Hoplite, with full ATTACK and DEFENCE. Maybe it could be taken as a Skill between 2nd and 4th Ranks, or Mercanian Barbarians get it immediately.

Thoughts?


When you write "Instead of wearing the shield on the arm, it could be used, as Starkad said above, in the manner of a Greek Hoplite" , What do you mean exactly ? Starkad said above the (long?) spear could be used with the 2 hands (with a 3 attack penalty) and the shield on the arm. Why not a specialised combat skill as you said? :)

For a short spear , d8 : 4 damages sounds ok, but something bothers me when it is exactly the same a sword :( . I paid attention to your suggestion 2d3 : 3 damages.

What do you think about 2d4 : 3 damages (better than a shortsword, less damage than a sword, but more efficient against light armours)??.
For the long spear , yes we could give a bonus to initiative (if we compare reflexes of the fighters) as starkad wrote (It would balance the 5 damages that hallberds and 2-hands sword inflict)
(I remember in a system, initiative had bonus malus according the weapon chosen : I think it was dark eye rpg)
What do you think?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:55 pm 
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hermes421 wrote:
Acoma wrote:
Instead of wearing the shield on the arm, it could be used, as Starkad said above, in the manner of a Greek Hoplite, with full ATTACK and DEFENCE. Maybe it could be taken as a Skill between 2nd and 4th Ranks, or Mercanian Barbarians get it immediately.

Thoughts?


When you write "Instead of wearing the shield on the arm, it could be used, as Starkad said above, in the manner of a Greek Hoplite" , What do you mean exactly ? Starkad said above the (long?) spear could be used with the 2 hands (with a 3 attack penalty) and the shield on the arm. Why not a specialised combat skill as you said? :)

For a short spear , d8 : 4 damages sounds ok, but something bothers me when it is exactly the same a sword :( . I paid attention to your suggestion 2d3 : 3 damages.

What do you think about 2d4 : 3 damages (better than a shortsword, less damage than a sword, but more efficient against light armours)??.
For the long spear , yes we could give a bonus to initiative (if we compare reflexes of the fighters) as starkad wrote (It would balance the 5 damages that hallberds and 2-hands sword inflict)
(I remember in a system, initiative had bonus malus according the weapon chosen : I think it was dark eye rpg)
What do you think?


"2d4, 3" is a good compromise to make spear and shield a valid but balanced choice over sword and shield.
2d4 is better penetration at AF 4 or less but poorer vs AF 6 or higher, so with the -1 to damage it balances out somewhat.

Chart with % chance of penetration at various AF values:

Code:
AF   Sword    Spear
1    87.5%    100%
2    75%      93.75%
3    62.5%    81.25%
4    50%      62.5%
5    37.5%    37.5%
6    25%      18.75%
7    12.5%    6.25%
8    0%       0%


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:00 pm 
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I don't think -1 DAMAGE is necessary, as spear & shield is a recognised and effective fighting style. Perhaps +1 DAMAGE for a Great Spear instead? That would make a small spear the base weapon and the Lance a more effective version.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:04 pm 
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Quote:
One approach. The shield is worn over the forearm. You still have two hands to wield your spear. Same thing, wearing a shield and holding a dagger on your left arm. No reason that is not possible.

In practice it isn't quite that easy; and depends on the shield...

A character would not be able to hold an item in their hand when also holding the following (real world) shields: Celtic shield, Roman legionary Scutum, Saxon or Viking roundshields. These shields were gripped by a central handle, protected by a shield boss. In addition, the Greek Hoplon shield was very heavy and would require the character to not only strap the arm to the shield, but to hold it by a hand grip (this can be seen on certain vases). Greek Hoplites used a spear in one hand.

When the Macedonians started using the sarissa (basically a pike), which required two hands to hold, they started using the "Telamon" shield, which was smaller, strapped to the forearm (with a strap supporting it over the neck), and allowed the hand to protrude beyond the shield's rim. Similarly, the very large Norman "kite" shield could be worn hanging on the left side, supported by a neck strap - leaving the shield hand free to control the horses' reins. While using a Telamon or Kite shield in such a way is fine in massed or cavalry combat, it isn't much good in single combat as the shield arm is severely restricted in its movement. You might say the shield acts more like a bit of wall than the moving defence which gives its DW bonus...

Quote:
"2d4, 3" is a good compromise to make spear and shield a valid but balanced choice over sword and shield.

As I thought about it this morning, I started liking the 2d3 Armour Bypass option again. It makes the short spear very effective against lightly armoured opponents (effectively ignoring leather and penetrating hard leather most of the time), while being relatively ineffective against anyone encased in plate armour (possibly fairly realistically). This is something backed up by Wimlach's penetration probability table.

I wonder about only 3 damage, though. The spear heads between a long and short spear would be similar in size, as would the damage they inflict. Perhaps 4 is better (2d3, 4)? Then again, 3 is the damage a shortsword does, so this might be fitting for the "spear equivalent"...?

Quote:
I think some Mungodan short spear would be nice to have. d6,4 maybe?

A broad-bladed short spear? Similar to an assegai? That might work.


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