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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:42 pm 
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Do you mean Judaism? If so, there's no evidence of such a thing in DW that I'm aware of.

I also agree. I can find nothing in any of the books that is the equivalent to Judaism (and I have not felt the need to add it in to my version of Legend).

Reading the "Bloodsword" books, you find a references to the Magian cult - which appears to have preceded Ta-ashim.
» Ridaq adds: "It is as the Illuminate said when he stripped away the Magian priest's magic: the gift that is given by taking away is the gift of possibilities."
(It is possible that the Magians might be seen as a vague equivalent of Zoroastrians)

Before (and possibly at concurrent with) the Magians would be the Gods of Kaikuhuru and the imported gods of Emphidor and Selentium.

What I like about Legend is that it is close enough to our world that it is easy to see equivalents which, in turn makes it easier to both describe and role-play; but that it is also sufficiently different that it is clearly not our world. Thus we have Gatanades and Akaabah rather than our own, well-known equivalents (although Mars appears to remain as one of the principal gods of the Old Selentines and we have Woden, Tor and Loge as Odin, Thor and Loki).

This is why I'm trying to settle on a name to replace "Mary" that sits well in several languages. I'm not really happy with my suggestion of Marta, as it's just too similar. Mara is tempting... But, again, it is very similar to Mary (and it reminds me of Marya Morevna - from Slavic folklore).
Would the name work? "Holy Mara, mother of Gatanades, bless this (insert name of thing here)..."


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:30 am 
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WodenKrait wrote:
Do you mean Judaism?


I do have the 'Old Faith' as an equivalent of Judaism in my games, but it's very rarely come up, and I think the only time I've ever written anything that even touches on it is in my material on Ongus.

"The only Temple of the Old Faith in Ongus is located on Chicken Street and for that reason that street, Hound Street and Alis Lane, have become the centre of that small community within the city. The True Faith regards the Old Faith as ancestral to its own beliefs though they have not accepted the Martyrdom of Gatanedes as fulfilling the ancient promise of God - and though prejudice against these people exists, it is generally kept in check."

There is a bit of material about the True Faith in the Players Guide... I think I wrote a lot of it.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:38 pm 
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The only Temple of the Old Faith in Ongus is located on Chicken Street and for that reason that street, Hound Street and Alis Lane, have become the centre of that small community within the city. The True Faith regards the Old Faith as ancestral to its own beliefs though they have not accepted the Martyrdom of Gatanedes as fulfilling the ancient promise of God - and though prejudice against these people exists, it is generally kept in check.

Interesting. I suppose it's reasonable to assume there was a faith out of which that of Gatanades (the True Faith) arose. Never really thought about it before...

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There is a bit of material about the True Faith in the Players Guide... I think I wrote a lot of it.

Pages 44 - 46, I believe? Some good stuff in there.

I notice you opted to model the faith of the New Selentine Empire on something akin to the Arian heresy. Unfortunately, as I wrote my stuff before I had the Internet (or the Player's Guide existed), I had already had that heresy "dealt with" and have to discount it. I prefer to concentrate on the difference as highlighted in DW Book 6: "Doctrinal distinctions are find and need not be explored here, but much is made by theologians of the image of the Pantocrator – a stern aspect of the Saviour as 'Judge of the World' rarely seen outside the New Empire.... the Tamorians point at some of the odder beliefs of the Selentines. One example is the tripartite nature of God: the Fist of God, which metes out destruction to sinner and infidel; the Eye of God, which watches men's souls and judges them for Heaven or Hell; and the Mouth of God (the Saviour himself) which speaks in the heart so that one may know Good from Evil."
(I usually don't bother with fine doctrinal distinctions, but player interest forced my hand - I had to come up with something. Not to mention the "history" of Legend would be greatly influenced by the True Faith and can't be ignored simply because it might be inconvenient...)

It's as I plan out the cities of my version of Legend that I start to notice some of the lack of detail (which can be both and advantage and a disadvantage).* It's fairly easy to come up with names of saints for various churches (and stories to accompany those saints), but a great many churches in the real world have the name "Our Lady" (or "Notre Dame") and are in honour of what is essentially the Saviour's Mother... Which is why I started wondering what name I could give her.
(Still thinking about it, as it happens.)

* An advantage, because you can come up with your own stuff and not be gainsaid. A disadvantage when lack of inspiration strikes.


Last edited by Starkad on Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:29 pm 
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Unless you want to forego a significant mother figure altogether (and maybe weave in some other religious analogues)?

Take it one step further, in that it wasn't a virgin birth - after seeing a bright star fall from the sky, the infant Gatanades was discovered by some simple fisherfolk (Marta and Yonatan) on the banks of the Kansa River, and raised as their own.

I found this early engraving of Gatanades...


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:00 pm 
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Unless you want to forego a significant mother figure altogether (and maybe weave in some other religious analogues)?

Interesting concept, but seems unlikely - considering pagan figures that closely mimic those of our own world (just like the rest of Legend). Unless...
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Take it one step further, in that it wasn't a virgin birth - after seeing a bright star fall from the sky, the infant Gatanades was discovered by some simple fisherfolk (Marta and Yonatan) on the banks of the Kansa River, and raised as their own.
I found this early engraving of Gatanades...

:lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:38 am 
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Starkad wrote:
Interesting. I suppose it's reasonable to assume there was a faith out of which that of Gatanades (the True Faith) arose. Never really thought about it before...


I like to draw a lot on real world history in my games, so I tend to keep things fairly close. I haven't really made much use of the 'Old Faith' in my games, yet, but I want to be able to easily if it ever comes up.

Starkad wrote:
I notice you opted to model the faith of the New Selentine Empire on something akin to the Arian heresy.


Kind of but more specifically I was drawing on the following from the Dragon Warriors Rulebook:

Nevertheless, the Empire is a heterodox state. According to their beliefs, the Saviour was ‘promoted’ to godhood by his actions in much the way that the Imperators of old were deified after their death. The Selentine Church, however, teaches that the Saviour was preordained to bring salvation to the world—literally, that he was the Son of God. The two factions are in almost complete agreement on the Saviour’s teachings and on the nature of God Himself, but this one doctrinal difference is enough to separate the Tamorian Church from Selentium.

Starkad wrote:
It's as I plan out the cities of my version of Legend that I start to notice some of the lack of detail (which can be both and advantage and a disadvantage).* It's fairly easy to come up with names of saints for various churches (and stories to accompany those saints), but a great many churches in the real world have the name "Our Lady" (or "Notre Dame") and are in honour of what is essentially the Saviour's Mother... Which is why I started wondering what name I could give her.
(Still thinking about it, as it happens.)


In my own games, this isn't something I've explored in detail, but I do assume that the Mother of the Savior is revered in some way, and I do have a couple of the Churches in my version of Ongus names in her honour - Our Lady of Grace, and Sacred Mother of Peace but I haven't actually given her a name. I kind of like the suggestion of Marta, because one of the major NPCs in my game (who also appears in Friends or Foes) is named Marta, and she is a very maternal figure in many ways (although she'd probably Dishearten anybody who suggested it).

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:15 am 
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My Gatanades legend incorporated several variations to the real world equivalent. For instance, there are many trinities, not just one; there's the Hand, the Eye, and the Mouth. I also had The Hawk, the Owl, and the Dove. There was the Sky, The Earth and The Sea, The Sword, The Book and the Plough, and finally the Mother, The Son, and the Spirit. By having different trinities, the true faith becomes a little more metaphorical and less literal than Christianity. By having one aspect of the supreme being a Mother, the need for a Marian cult is removed and we can also explain more easily why the lands of the true faith are a little less misogynistic than our real world equivalent. There was no virgin birth and actually each of the gospels has a completely different and largely incompatible version of his origins.

Scholars and theologians divide Gatanades' life into three stages; he worked, he preached, and finally he fought. These align to some of the trinities. Finally, after a long struggle with the authorities he was captured and executed. Because Gatanades regenerated wounds and could back to life no matter what wounds he sustains, he is finally cut into four pieces, each piece burnt, and the four sets of ashes buried at a crossroads. This is why the cross is holy in the True Faith. Censers are burnt in church symbolising the death of Gatanades.

None of this ever actually featured in any significant way in any games I ran. It was just in the back of my mind helping inform the world.

Cheers,

-Kyle


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:14 pm 
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Kind of but more specifically I was drawing on the following from the Dragon Warriors Rulebook:

Of course! How did I miss that? :?

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I kind of like the suggestion of Marta, because one of the major NPCs in my game (who also appears in Friends or Foes) is named Marta, and she is a very maternal figure in many ways (although she'd probably Dishearten anybody who suggested it).

It's as good a reason as any other! :lol:

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My Gatanades legend...

Those are some really interesting ideas! I may pinch a couple of those for my game... ;)

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None of this ever actually featured in any significant way in any games I ran.

Perhaps not... But if you ever get someone playing the new "Priest" profession, then they might need to know a bit more about the religion they are following.*

* I've never had a Priest in my games, largely because I have only recently seen the new DW books... But I've had players whose characters have sat down to listen to sermons and asked what the sermon's about.


Last edited by Starkad on Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:13 pm 
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Starkad wrote:
But I've had players whose characters have sat down to listen to sermons and asked what the sermon's about.

I hate players like that - those who can blithely discount the most obvious clues as mere flavour but end up fixated on trivial, throw-away details as if the fate of Legend depends on them. Still, keeps us GMs on our toes, at least!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:40 pm 
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I hate players like that - those who can blithely discount the most obvious clues as mere flavour but end up fixated on trivial, throw-away details as if the fate of Legend depends on them. Still, keeps us GMs on our toes, at least!

I've found that printing a large "plot clue" sign helps...
(Although, in fairness, I've not had to use it very often - and it's more a joke than really needed.)

In context, the game I was running at the time was set in 5th Century Ellesland, where the True Faith was beginning to supplant the old, pagan ways. While it was probably good role-playing on the part of the role-player, it did put me "on the spot" a bit. Possibly my fault for introducing a vocal, firebrand bishop into the game - some players actually wanted to know what he was saying!

I find that a lot of fantasy games (DW included) set in worlds with close parallels to our own history tend to massively under-rate the influence of religion on people of the time. I can see why people might want to steer clear (in case anyone gets offended), but it does their world (and their game) something of a disservice. I am not suggesting anyone produce religious texts for the fantasy religions, but a bit more guidance on the dominant religion(s) of the day might well assist players in getting a feel for their characters.* Something as basic as the principal religious story and teachings, a few principal/famous saints/holy persons, the basics of temple hierarchy and worship would probably be sufficient.
* How do you play an honest, God-fearing knight if you don't know what it is that your God teaches?

Legend borrows heavily from Christianity and Islam, which helps a lot (while also risking some people taking offence) but a bit more background colour (e.g. principal names & places) would, I feel, both add "colour" to the religions and allow them to be distanced from their real-world equivalents. To a certain extent, that's why I've named some saints and holy places... And then got stuck on some of the principal ones.


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