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 Post subject: Knave - Infuriate/Pacify
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:11 am 
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Hi all,

Just wondering if people interpret this ability as using an action in combat or if it is a free action on top of anything else the knave does. The way it's worded indicates a free action but I'm curious as to how others see it.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:15 am 
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Hm, didn't get a chance to play this one. Maybe we should give this 'raw power' buffs to 'balance it out'....

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:28 pm 
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Kharille wrote:
Hm, didn't get a chance to play this one. Maybe we should give this 'raw power' buffs to 'balance it out'....


I re-read an old discussion today about the knave from when it was first released. I had forgotten how deep we got into the issues on this one.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:06 pm 
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I enjoy the fighting aspect of rpgs. I know some people make that effort to turn it into an art form, and it could very well be a classical experience exceeding that of Tolkien, but you'd need some real indepth writing. If I got into that I might as well write fiction on a professional basis.

If I recall, the real Sinbad was a wimp merchant of some intelligence who got out of situations without being eaten and tended to get richer. Not sure if anyone ran a game without the fighting and fireworks, wouldn't be such a need for raw power and marvel superhero powers for everyone. Really impressed Nim ran a game where everyone played knights. At least there was no magic healing and video game mechanics.

Some guy in youtube pointed out how bandits in a warband video game fought to the death. There is a morale mechanic which should be used more often. In the Yojimbo movie a samurai cuts down 3 gangsters and the 20 others are pacified. Same way a good Knave should be able to pacify a nasty crowd I'm sure. Might take the fun out of it. Don't think Blood Sword books would be fun without the combat.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:50 am 
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rumtap wrote:
Just wondering if people interpret this ability as using an action in combat or if it is a free action on top of anything else the knave does. The way it's worded indicates a free action but I'm curious as to how others see it.

I'd suggest it is a free action, additional to any other action they may take (unless the other action requires them to speak - such as demanding someone's surrender, spellcasting, etc.). Although probably not what Dragon Warriors needs is another combat mechanic...

I would also suggest that anyone can taunt their enemy in combat (not just a Knave) and that, to do so effectively, the character should know enough about the person they're taunting to be able to "press their buttons" so to speak. This wouldn't necessarily need to be in-depth personal knowledge - for example, any knight might have their ire raised if their honour were publicly challenged. Greater knowledge of the victim of the taunt might make it easier to infuriate them, of course, and I think this probably makes it more suited to a contested skill test than as an automatic ability.

As for Pacify, again, why can only Knaves attempt conciliatory dialogue in combat?

Like the Hunter's Forage ability, Infuriate/Pacify is an example of creating an ability where one wasn't needed - every character should be able to taunt, forage, whatever. Creating an ability specifically to achieve this and assign it to a new profession either limits what other players had been doing in the game up until that point anyway (because they now have to stop it because they don't have the exclusive ability that enables this) or the Knave profession is diminished because their abilities are no longer special. Better to make it a general ability available to everyone to learn as a skill (although that would require a workable skills system!)

I would also suggest that the Knave can only work as a profession if the social context of the other professions is fleshed out. Knaves and Knights, for example, fill very different (and, arguably, extreme) social niches - but both have the ability to wield social influence. If only the Knave can wield their social influence without also describing the social abilities of knights, the game mechanics unintentionally inform a style of social play that excludes the Knight's social advantages.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:57 am 
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Kharille wrote:
I enjoy the fighting aspect of rpgs. I know some people make that effort to turn it into an art form, and it could very well be a classical experience exceeding that of Tolkien, but you'd need some real indepth writing. If I got into that I might as well write fiction on a professional basis.

If I recall, the real Sinbad was a wimp merchant of some intelligence who got out of situations without being eaten and tended to get richer. Not sure if anyone ran a game without the fighting and fireworks, wouldn't be such a need for raw power and marvel superhero powers for everyone. Really impressed Nim ran a game where everyone played knights. At least there was no magic healing and video game mechanics.

Some guy in youtube pointed out how bandits in a warband video game fought to the death. There is a morale mechanic which should be used more often. In the Yojimbo movie a samurai cuts down 3 gangsters and the 20 others are pacified. Same way a good Knave should be able to pacify a nasty crowd I'm sure. Might take the fun out of it. Don't think Blood Sword books would be fun without the combat.

Some great points - yes, fantasy RPGs need combat - it's fun, thrilling, and dangerous. But, unlike high-fantasy RPGs, Dragon Warriors is steeped in a little bit more verisimilitude that should inform more realistic combat encounters - most people won't fight to the death and most people will try to escape from a combat in which they are outmatched, for example. Leave murder-hobo gaming with instant healing to D&D.

Knave or not, if you see someone cut down three of your colleagues without breaking a sweat, the others are likely to surrender (or run). Wouldn't you?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:06 pm 
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Oh yeah, in old book 1 they say orcs make a habit of running away. I think a free hit is too powerful, but perhaps ATTACK vs EVASION instead to leave combat. Whereas you're making a full 'run' move your opponent would make a 'move' move so that they can take action/strike. Would not apply if they are already engaged with another opponent.

Thats like a 'free move' as long as you're not too committed. Maybe some free moves would be in order, shouting war cries, threats, demanding they drop their weapon, perhaps a person who 'moves 10m' can also do do other actions like pick up objects, knock over lanterns .. actually, that is something you can do if you're running.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:02 pm 
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All good points about social interactions and the knave. The feedback I gave at the time was it should have worked with the existing social class rules rather than using rank.

Also yes, foes should run away or surrender if that is the logical thing for them to do. Experience is awarded for defeating an opponent, that doesn't mean you have to kill them.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:25 am 
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"the Knave may keep up a running commentary as the combat progresses," - intent is its a free action during other combat actions.

I allow everyone to attempt anything, in this case: The difference would be that others do not automatically effect enemies of lower Rank allowing all opponents to resist with Intelligence rolls and that other Professions/Non-Professions are not as skilled at effecting others allowing only minor adjustments of -1 ATT or -1 DEF at most. Of course if an enemy knows something specific and disquieting about a particular PC or vice versa then its GMs call as to what the effects are.

With regards to Forage just increase the difficulty by 2 for non-hunters, double the time taken and obviously no additions for Favoured terrain.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:13 am 
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Just a thought. Is it possible we can draw upon real life/legendary/mythical knaves, famous bards or poets and see what they did?

Back of my mind... Robert Burns comes to mind but perhaps successful politicians. What about Hitler? I think he managed to capture 7 french soldiers with a pistol. Not a medieval version but perhaps something to be said about a 1st rank Knave and what they can do.

Doesn't have to be bards I guess.... Nestor from the Iliad? Loge? What about the real Sinbad?

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