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 Post subject: Fire and Smoke....
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:09 pm 
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Just one aspect of terrain rules which I keep wanting to expand upon. I remember finding it so hard to approach a 10ft bonfire, my intention was to throw a glass bottle into the fire and I think I had to do it from 10, maybe 15 metres away because the heat radiating off it was so intense. I'd imagine players might have difficulty going anywhere near lava and might even get some intense burns. Plate armour might protect to some extent but after a while I'd expect it would be a major cause of discomfort to keep it on. Maybe a shield has more uses in keeping radiating heat off.

Also, smoke rules. I figure maybe some very quickly implemented wind rules might be in order. The way it obscures shooting and also suffocates. Maybe a system of involuntary movement for being exposed to burning woods, heat, and maybe even a system of involuntary movement for a player that is burning. It would be an extension of HELLFIRE warlock spell.

Imagine if there was a strong wind blowing at the same time, perhaps a GM might rule for more damage as a result?

Maybe some other mechanics for a player that is waste deep in marsh and hit by a DRAGONBREATH? Shouldn't he get a bonus for EVASION? Its like even if he was hit you'd think the damage was minimized as long as he doesn't focus on sword fighting or reading scrolls...

On that matter, what about DRAGONBREATHING something trying to read a scroll? or maybe shooting someone who is trying to drink in the middle of combat?

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 Post subject: Re: Fire and Smoke....
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:04 pm 
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Kharille wrote:
Just one aspect of terrain rules which I keep wanting to expand upon. I remember finding it so hard to approach a 10ft bonfire, my intention was to throw a glass bottle into the fire and I think I had to do it from 10, maybe 15 metres away because the heat radiating off it was so intense. I'd imagine players might have difficulty going anywhere near lava and might even get some intense burns. Plate armour might protect to some extent but after a while I'd expect it would be a major cause of discomfort to keep it on. Maybe a shield has more uses in keeping radiating heat off.

Probably not something that crops up enough to need rules, but if you fancied looking at some physics:

https://physics.stackexchange.com/quest ... re-burning

Kharille wrote:
Also, smoke rules. I figure maybe some very quickly implemented wind rules might be in order. The way it obscures shooting and also suffocates. Maybe a system of involuntary movement for being exposed to burning woods, heat, and maybe even a system of involuntary movement for a player that is burning. It would be an extension of HELLFIRE warlock spell.

I'm starting to wonder the kinds of campaigns in which you play where this would crop up enough to need rules, but I'd probably start by extending the missile combat adjustments to include cover/smoke. I like the idea of a character panicking and flailing when on fire (whereas just sensibly just dropping and rolling to put out the flames as we all, rationally, know to do). Maybe being on fire triggers a morale check? Failure means the character continues to burn for another round, running randomly around.

Kharille wrote:
Maybe some other mechanics for a player that is waste deep in marsh and hit by a DRAGONBREATH? Shouldn't he get a bonus for EVASION?

That sounds like cover, which crops up sufficiently often for me to have some house guidance for how cover benefits Evasion:

Cover
If a character is partially obscured by a low wall or just peering around a corner when required to make an Evasion test, he may duck behind the object already partially obscuring him for a bonus to his Evasion.
If the object covering the character can withstanding the full force of the threat, it affords a bonus of +1 to +4 to the character’s Evasion (at the GM’s discretion, depending on how much of the character’s body is currently exposed).
As a rule, for each full 20% of the character’s body in cover at the time of needing to make an Evasion test, the character gains a +1 bonus.

Example
An archer shooting from behind an embrasure in a castle might have almost total cover and be at +4 to any Evasion tests, but an archer on the battlements may be slightly more exposed, gaining only a +2 or +3 to Evasion.
Similarly, an explorer poking one eye around a corner may enjoy +4 to his Evasion score, should he have to whip is head out of the way of a gout of flame that spears towards him, but a sorcerer looking to launch a spell down a corridor from the same position will probably need to be more exposed, gaining only a +1 or +2 to Evasion.

Shields as cover
Using a shield as cover from an incoming attack increases a character’s Evasion by +1. Shield cover bonuses are not cumulative with other cover bonuses. Note that if the incoming attack exceeds the shield’s Damage Threshold it will be damaged, just as it would be in melee combat. At the GM’s discretion, powerful damaging effects (such as powerful spells, for example) may entirely destroy the shield.

Kharille wrote:
On that matter, what about DRAGONBREATHING something trying to read a scroll? or maybe shooting someone who is trying to drink in the middle of combat?

This would be a called shot, for which there are currently only rules that apply to Attack vs. Defence (for example, the -8 to Attack to target a Demonologist's Phylactery). However, I wouldn't see any reason why these penalties couldn't apply to the Speed of indirect magical attacks to target them more precisely (well, those that could feasibly be targeted). Anything from a -1 to -4 penalty to Speed would be appropriate for the size of the target (half the penalty to Attack).

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 Post subject: Re: Fire and Smoke....
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 1:50 am 
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Nice link. Guess since most of us never had much 'real world' experience of falling great distances, walking near lava and fighting fire elementals it does help to share ideas.

Can't recall if anything in old book 2 deals with involuntary inhalation but as opposed to being immersed in water, theres a few breaths in smoke that might be better than nothing or inhaling liquid.

Good to see your cover rules, we do need to expand and revise shooting rules, but not to too much an extent that the game freezes.

I just figure if the guy is reading a scroll and you dragonbreath him, it might be a side effect that flammable items will burn such as scrolls that the person is trying to read. Or maybe you might somehow detonate any explosives he's carrying. Unlikely maybe but wait until we get more sappers in adventuring groups....

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 Post subject: Re: Fire and Smoke....
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 9:04 pm 
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Kharille wrote:
Can't recall if anything in old book 2 deals with involuntary inhalation but as opposed to being immersed in water, theres a few breaths in smoke that might be better than nothing or inhaling liquid.

I'd probably run smoke inhalation in the same way I handle drowning (i.e., my standard suffocation rules):

Suffocation
A character can hold his breath for a number of combat rounds equal to twice his Strength (after being modified for Handicap). Thereafter, he loses 1 HP per combat round until he draws breath. For each full minute of doing nothing but breathe heavily, he recovers 1 of these HP damage (but no more than were lost through suffocation). Simply drawing a single breath will refresh the character enough to hold their breath again for a number of combat rounds equal to twice their Strength but will not replenish any lost HP.

If a character engages in strenuous activity while holding their breath (for example, combat, running, swimming, et cetera), the amount of time they can hold their breath before taking damage is halved.

Kharille wrote:
Good to see your cover rules, we do need to expand and revise shooting rules, but not to too much an extent that the game freezes.

Yeah. The problems with overtly focusing the game rules on combat are twofold. The first is that any combat encounters, which already consume a disproportionate amount of dice rolling and game time, just get further bogged down in referring to rules and tables. The second is that an overt focus on combat rules tacitly encourages combat-based campaigns - rules inform play; if the players see lots of rules for combat, that's what they'll want to do.

Kharille wrote:
I just figure if the guy is reading a scroll and you dragonbreath him, it might be a side effect that flammable items will burn such as scrolls that the person is trying to read. Or maybe you might somehow detonate any explosives he's carrying. Unlikely maybe but wait until we get more sappers in adventuring groups....

Currently, combat actions cannot be used tactically to interrupt another combatant's actions and I think this would be a slippery slope towards a very different combat system (possibly even one horribly like D&D!) I do let Dragonbreath ignite readily flammable materials at which it's targeted but anything on a character's person would require a called shot - the jet of a Dragonbreath is too narrow to be particularly effective unless specifically targeted at something flammable. Maybe if the character fumbles his Evasion roll and things were going too well for the character, I'd call something out in the narrative but I wouldn't create a precedent or rule, just whatever makes the narrative more exciting for the players.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire and Smoke....
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:02 am 
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Cobwebbed Dragon wrote:
Kharille wrote:
I just figure if the guy is reading a scroll and you dragonbreath him, it might be a side effect that flammable items will burn such as scrolls that the person is trying to read. Or maybe you might somehow detonate any explosives he's carrying. Unlikely maybe but wait until we get more sappers in adventuring groups....

Currently, combat actions cannot be used tactically to interrupt another combatant's actions and I think this would be a slippery slope towards a very different combat system (possibly even one horribly like D&D!) I do let Dragonbreath ignite readily flammable materials at which it's targeted but anything on a character's person would require a called shot - the jet of a Dragonbreath is too narrow to be particularly effective unless specifically targeted at something flammable. Maybe if the character fumbles his Evasion roll and things were going too well for the character, I'd call something out in the narrative but I wouldn't create a precedent or rule, just whatever makes the narrative more exciting for the players.



Yeah, its a pity. So what if the Assassin has high reflexes? He can throw out a few shaken, and the wounded sorceror might hit him with a shadowbolt. Personally I think Intelligence should have a higher contribution to combat resolution. Only if you're in actual hand to hand should you use reflexes. In the 90's I used to get people to declare actions, then I'd tell them what actually happened, when the smart guys did their thing... Simple rules like shooters getting their shot off first before they get engaged and all...

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 Post subject: Re: Fire and Smoke....
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 7:43 pm 
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Quote:
In the 90's I used to get people to declare actions, then I'd tell them what actually happened, when the smart guys did their thing... Simple rules like shooters getting their shot off first before they get engaged and all...

There's a board game where the slowest to act has to declare their action first, the second slowest then declares, &c... Until everyone has declared and then the quickest actually acts first (so the slowest acts last). You have to stick to your declared action.
I can't remember which game that's in - it might come back to me in time.

Quote:
I'm starting to wonder the kinds of campaigns in which you play where this would crop up enough to need rules...

Cobwebbed Dragon's link gives an interesting insight into how close one can get to lava. For this and other items (smoke, fire) there are so many variables that I would personally be tempted to leave it to a GM's call - perhaps with a slight guideline to assist a GM.

Note that the spell Hellfire (Warlock, Level 5) causes 1d6HP - AF damage from heat/flames to anyone within 2m. This might be a good starting point for generating rules on heat damage?

Poor light gives +3 or more penalty to missile fire. Smoke is effectively "poor light" (read it as poor visibility), so the GM could use that as a base, increasing as the smoke gets thicker. Smoke is also likely to give a maximum visibility in terms of the distance a character can see...


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