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 Post subject: Re: Assassin Breakfall
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:20 am 
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Didn't know there was this in 2ed. Not against it, but it seems like theres a lot about 2ed I don't know about. Has anyone made an effort to summarize the changes? Elementalist raw power, assassin breakfalls. I know the knights and barbarians can track now. Is it listed anywhere?

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 Post subject: Re: Assassin Breakfall
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:06 am 
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Once you've fallen 18 metres you're hitting the ground at about 19 metres per second. This is the same as standing still and a wall flying into you at nearly 70 kilometres per hour, and if you weigh 70kg that's an impact energy of about 12 kilojoules, which is similar to the energy imparted by a .50 calibre heavy machine gun bullet.

Nobody's walking out of that unharmed (unless they land on a haystack or whatever), even if they survive.

Barring something supernatural going on, I think the new rule is definitely overkill. I originally thought even the original rule which allowed a six metre fall without damage was stretching it a bit but it seems to be about right when you look at resources like this https://www.usma.edu/math/Military%20Math%20Modeling/C5.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Assassin Breakfall
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:18 am 
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Starkad wrote:
This suggestion got me thinking of an alternative.

Instead of taking full damage on exceeding a 6m fall, an Assassin that has bought the skill again may fall upto 12m, but between 6m and 12m he will take damage as if he had fallen 6m less than he has - i.e. a fall of 9m would now be treated as (9m-6m)=3m, or 1d4 HP damage.


This is how I always ran the Assassin's falling ability in my games actually; it seems closer to the reality of how the Parachute Landing Fall technique actually works; it reduces the injury you will receive from any fall.

Incidentally, I adjudicated falls a bit differently from the rules in other ways. For one thing, if a character is willing to hang from the edge of whatever they're falling from, obviously they can reduce the fall distance by their height. Also, it matters what they're falling onto; grass, cobblestones, and a pile of broken spears are all very different experiences. Finally, I don't grant any reduction in damage from wearing armour; I figure what you gain in impact protection you lose because the extra weight is making you land harder.

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-Kyle


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 Post subject: Re: Assassin Breakfall
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:27 am 
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This is what 6, 12, and 18 metres looks like.

Attachment:
Falling Distanes.png
Falling Distanes.png [ 84.6 KiB | Viewed 239 times ]



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 Post subject: Re: Assassin Breakfall
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:29 am 
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesna_Vulović

Vesna Vulović (Serbian Cyrillic: Весна Вуловић; pronounced [ˈʋeːsna ˈʋuːlɔʋit͡ɕ]; 3 January 1950 – 23 December 2016) was a Serbian flight attendant. She holds the Guinness world record for surviving the highest fall without a parachute: 10,160 metres (33,330 ft). Her fall took place after an explosion tore through the baggage compartment of JAT Flight 367 on 26 January 1972, causing it to crash near Srbská Kamenice, Czechoslovakia. She was the sole survivor of the crash, which air safety investigators attributed to a briefcase bomb. The Yugoslav authorities suspected that Croatian nationalists were to blame, but no one was ever arrested.


https://www.wikihow.com/Survive-a-Long-Fall

What can you do if you slip off a scaffolding 10 stories above the ground, or find yourself free falling when your parachute fails? The odds are not on your side, but survival is possible. If you can keep your wits about you, there are ways you may be able to influence the velocity of your fall and lessen the ultimate force of the impact.

https://listverse.com/2013/09/23/10-peo ... e-heights/

Check out this youtube....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX401OHRMa4

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 Post subject: Re: Assassin Breakfall
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:02 am 
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Vesna Vulovic was seriously injured, and she wasn't in free fall herself, but rather still in the aircraft which itself crashed. The aircraft lost its entire nose and flight deck but retained its flight surfaces all the way to the ground and was in an uncontrolled spin during its descent, rather than just plummeting straight down. Overall, the story of Vesna Vulovic has little if anything in common with the type of falls we're talking about in this thread.

Incidentally, any fall from greater than about 500 metres is about the same as a fall from that height, because by that stage you've reached terminal velocity, so even if Vesna Vulovic fell from ten kilometres it is not in itself more significant than if she fell from a far lesser height.

The Wikihow article mainly concentrates on a fall down an incline, not a freefall, and strongly implies that you'll be badly injured from any fall of significant height even if you survive.

The Listverse article specifically states in its first sentence "A fall from 15–18 meters (50–60 ft) will prove fatal to most people." Most of the items in the listverse article make it clear what mitigating circumstances allowed the people involved to survive their falls (trees, thick snow, partially opened parachutes, water etc)

Overall, this suggests that your only realistic chance of surviving a fall from a great height is by good fortune (spend a fate point?), and even then you'll end up badly injured unless you benefit from an even more freakish stroke of good luck. Given that it is possible to fall any height above 16 metres and only lose 5HP, I'd say the rules as written are fine and the amended Breakfall rules don't work well.

Oh and that Youtube video looks fake as hell.

Cheers,

-Kyle


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 Post subject: Re: Assassin Breakfall
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:51 am 
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I liked the "fall distances" picture, Kyle. I'm saving that as a handy example.

I made a slight error earlier. An Assassin in the new rules could potentially fall unharmed upto 18m by Rank 3 (not 5) - if they choose to forego Alchemical Techniques. It's still a serious specialisation, though.

As Kyle makes clear, a fall of that magnitude is asking for serious injury or death to the vast majority of people. The fact that survival is possible (by rolling minimum on a series of d20), but highly unlikely, does imply that the standard falling rules do work.

The questions are whether Assassins have quasi-mystical powers that allow them to fall great distances without trouble, and is this desirable in terms of game balance? As Damian May says; these are characters who can learn to feign death and even to walk through walls(!) - they are not ordinary people. In terms of the game though, a fall of 12m, or even 18m, is effectively being able to jump out off the top of a castle tower and simply keep on running... is this a bit much at Rank 3?

I can't help thinking of the film "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" when I read some of these rules... :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Assassin Breakfall
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:03 am 
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Quote:
Has anyone made an effort to summarize the changes?

Not that I know of. But, off the top of my head:

Warlocks can no longer wear plate armour (now limited to chain, AF4).
Knights and Barbarians get tracking skill.
Mystics get Spell Mastery for a limited range of spells.
Elementalists get Raw Power.
Assassins have their skills revised (ability to purchase different skills and improve the same skills), and their fail chances for Alchemical Techniques have been altered.
I've not noticed any changes for sorcerers, but I could easily have missed something...


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 Post subject: Re: Assassin Breakfall
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:10 am 
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Ah, the concept of light foot. Something that is used a lot in kung fu movies. Might account for ninjas walking on water.....


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 Post subject: Re: Assassin Breakfall
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:26 am 
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I think the new rule is probably fine, but with reductions for heights larger than 18m rather than taking full damage. If the Assassin has climbing hooks for hands and boots can they somehow grab onto the wall (maybe roll under STRENGTH + REFLEXES on 4d10/2d20?)


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